I could never drive a Beamer or Benz. Just not my style. :) But I may end up keeping my current Accord Coupe. Taking my time on the decision. The new one will always be there.
I could never drive a Beamer or Benz. Just not my style. :) But I may end up keeping my current Accord Coupe. Taking my time on the decision. The new one will always be there.
German cars are way over-rated. Any cuurent Japanese front line car gives away nothing to a German car, cept maybe unreliability!
CT.
Originally Posted by CocoTone
I've owned a couple of beemers and several japanese cars and have found just the opposite. None of the japanese cars ever stood up to the quality of ride, performance or fit and finish of the BMW's I've owned.
Im not sure how you can call merc unreliable when theyve nearly bankrupted their dealers over the last 5 years by having a shortage of warranty claims. BMWs tend to have electrical issues but they do keep winning the ward's engine awards for that I6.
Oh, and no lexus or infinity or acura can even come close to the interior of a 7 or an S imo. And then there is porsche. Personally I would take a cayman S over ANY japanese car, gt-r included. Ok, maybe not the right FD rx7 but certainly anything made right now.
Mitch Mitchell talking about Jimi and strats in general.
If the walrus is Paul then who is Carmen Sandiego?
Which Japanese cars have you owned specifically?? I don't consider Nissan in the same league as Lexus, Honda/Acura, etc. As far as engine design and advancements, Honda is light years ahead of the fatherland. Lets not forget who invented vsriable valve timing and lift concrol.
CT.
Honda does build a nice engine, I'll give them that, but honestly, how nice does it have to be? It's a machine and as long as it's reliable and efficient it does the job. Engines rarely fail when maintained. It's all the supporting stuff that causes problems.
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
The German brands have taken some hits in the reliability areas in recent years. The biggest problems might stem from the over-complicated computer interface megillahs they've put in the cars to give that gee-whiz high-tech sheen.
Audi and Mercedes in particular took some serious hits in the last five years, although they might have gotten a grip on the situation in the last couple years. I generally hear good things about BMWs.
Coco, you ought to take a look at the new Nissans. Their Infiniti brand seems really to have caught on bigtime where I live (Connecticut) and I have to say, the ones I've driven have been peachy as hell.
The good stuff has trickled down into the general Nissan ranks.
Isn't it nice when that happens in an auto company?
BTW...
My favorite Datsun/Nissan:
edit to add: I just learned of the 2009 model, it looks awsome! Oh snd th the 1980's z cars were pretty neat too.
Last edited by Jonnda; 04-23-2009 at 07:24 AM.
"The other Shaltanac's joopleberry shrub is always a more mauvy shade of pinky-russet."
"there's NOTHING WRONG with a live penguin, but...I expected a hamburger!"
That 240 looks fun. Stripped interior... Recaros... Minilites. prolly a 280 engine with triple Webers.
sweet.
I wish they would do something like this again in Detroit:
"What we need are more people who specialize in the impossible "- Theodore Roethke
Ron, they need something different. I think they should've kept the Neon, only redesigned it and put it in a heater turbo engine, and sold it cheap, ala the VW GTI.
I think, though, that the Detroit business model makes the execs think how they can make something large and profitable out everything.
The Neon was made in Mexico, I think. There was still some life left in that sucker!
yeah but the youtube crash tests of neon scare me a bit.
"The other Shaltanac's joopleberry shrub is always a more mauvy shade of pinky-russet."
"there's NOTHING WRONG with a live penguin, but...I expected a hamburger!"
The sad thing was that we went to a couple US Dealers - Dodge and Chevy and asked for an AWD vehicle for $20,000 and got 30 mpg. They told us to look at Honda or Subaru. I realized afterward that Pontiac makes an AWD version of the Vibe, but I'm not sure I trust that Pontiac will be around in a couple years... we pick up the new Subaru tonight!
"We catched fish and talked, and we took a swim now and then to keep off sleepiness." Mark Twain
For the millionth time, a Vibe is a Toyota Matrix. Same car, different badge.
CT.
Thanks CT for pointing that out. Of course the other 999,999 times you pointed it out I wasn't looking for a car so I missed it.
Going back to the OP's question, build cars that people want, are well built and are competitively priced they will buy them...
"We catched fish and talked, and we took a swim now and then to keep off sleepiness." Mark Twain
Did you guys see where Chevy is going to offer the Camaro in a 4-door version? There goes the neighborhood....
Ron
"What we need are more people who specialize in the impossible "- Theodore Roethke
Is that phtotshop or real? If it is real then down the line it will be more affordable as a used car.
"The other Shaltanac's joopleberry shrub is always a more mauvy shade of pinky-russet."
"there's NOTHING WRONG with a live penguin, but...I expected a hamburger!"
I found out it is a photoshop pic. Thank goodness! I HATE 4-door cars. They should be strictly for grandmothers, police and taxi service
"What we need are more people who specialize in the impossible "- Theodore Roethke
BTW,
The problem with the big three isn't "getting the folks back"
They are selling plenty of cars. The problem is the margins. The business model is unsustainable--pure and simple.
If they weren't bloated companies that have way to much overhead because they sold their souls to the unions they'd be in fine shape. They actually pay out more in pension and benefits to people that no longer work for them than they pay to their current employees. That's just stupid.
REally, you hate 4 door cars? Too bad, more early to mid 1960's lincoln continentals for me then. they were featured in matrix and men in black i belive.
1963
There has got to be a 4 door car you like, just gotta look hard enough for one. But I'm biased as most of the time i have spent in a car has been in the back seat and I don't like tripping over the front seat to get to a cramped rear seat. Now if the rear seat was easy to get too, or I was the driver, i wouldn't mind that much.
"The other Shaltanac's joopleberry shrub is always a more mauvy shade of pinky-russet."
"there's NOTHING WRONG with a live penguin, but...I expected a hamburger!"
Govenment regulation and various taxes at all levels of production is 50% of the cost of cars and trucks. CAFE fleet averages limit the numbers of vehicle platforms produced too.
I worked at Ford for 32 years and had cost data on supplies that Ford had to pay just for tooling costs. eg; one solid carbide .375" drill costs $325.00 USD. We used about 600 a year or about $250K for one drill size for the year. Each tool set cost about $5000.00 per hole drilled reamed or tapped. We resharpened each tool about 10 to 15 times before they wore out.
At our Triton Engine plants we make about 850,000 motors a year and tooling costs were about $160.00 per engine or about $135million USD. The parts that are imported to the plant for assembly drive the cost of an engine produced to about $7000 per motor. That includes all the components that a plant has to have: water, hydro, fuel, trucks, trains, shippers/receivers logistics, etc which are all taxed as goods or services.
When Ford built the plant in 1996 the cost was $2,000,000,000.00USD ...yes 2 BILLION dollars.
For the workers: 7% of the total production cost is labour, benifits and legacy (pensions) costs.
What the Big 3 have to do is get the govenments to lower taxation and regulations on all the levels of production infrastructure so they can lower the costs of production and vehicles will become cheaper to the buyer.
Japan does subsidize their industry by keeping the Yen artificially low to lower prices to grab market share. In Japan, business tells government what to do unlike the USA where government tell the Big 3 what to build and how they must do it...very costly.
The US media has also taken great pains to denegrate the domestic auto industry and people DO beleive what they read if they "get the message" often enough.
Our vehicles stand up to all comers on quality and performance.
Sorry to rant, but I blame Government as the biggest problem.
Some interesting thoughts there, Dooley. The stuff about the machinery is amazing. And I'm glad that you brought up Japan's artificially low yen, which is actually how they built such a huge economic powerhouse in the 60s and 70s. After the Plaza Accord in the mid-80s, the yen was allowed to float and it gained twice its value.
But the same thing is happening right now with the Chinese yuan; it's value is WAY low, especially considering the amount of western money flowing into that country. This allows them to undercut anybody in price. By the time it's revalued, the damage will already be done.
Be a funny thing if China ends up buying GM at firesale prices.
Dooley, I don't think it's strictly true that Japanese business tells the government what to do. (Given the power of business and lobbyists in America, though, you could almost say that about America.) What they do have over there is an interesting collaboration of business and government, where the two sides meet formally and work out long-range plans together.
Thus, Japan puts onerous duties on imports and preserves its industry and farming. Here in the USA, we get the privilege of buying stuff cheap (in addition to which we don't do Valued Added Taxing here, which adds greatly to the prices of things overseas), but of course in exchange for these low prices we've essentially allowed other countries to waltz in here unimpeded and undercut our industry.
After World War 2, Japan and Germany had to create all new factories, not to mention an entirely new social/governmental contract. UK and USA went on with the old systems. As for unions and pension funds, you've got to remember the horrors that working folks went through in the old days.
(Pensions were a regular part of life in our dads' day. Even now most cities in America are pretty grand about the pensions. Schoolteachers and cops and firemen are getting to retire with very nice packages.
Of course, it means that a lot of cities are enormously in the hole now. Isn't San Diego something like three or five billion in the red?.
Pensions and retirement deals USED to be part of American life. Those days are gone. Remember, it was only a few years ago that a lot of folks wanted to do away with Social Security.)
One thing about the current crisis that really bugs me is all easy denigration of American cars by idiot politicians. Especially the Congressmen from southern states who have Asian car factories in their precincts -- to hear those bastards rail against American cars just makes my blood boil.
How do the "domestic" non-big3 auto companies' production costs differ in terms of tooling costs, transportation, etc? You give a number of specific examples of costs but wouldn't those costs be similar for Ford, GM, Nissan, Honda,,,,,
I'm asking because it's not obvious how Detroit is at any disadvantage....Bill
Dooley, more monetarism is not what we need. Lower taxes, less regulation and less government is not the answer, and thats pretty well supported by our recession which is the best empirical evidence you could get that those polices are incorrect.
The real solution, the one that no american wants to hear, is that our way of life has to change. Consumerism has to go, public transportation needs to make up 75% or more of transportation (less cars, more high quality cars, higher prices, higher margins, ie the german model), the shifting of nearly all capitol and income to the top 2% has to be reversed.
You guys can pretend that murrikkka can last forever, but the one lesson Im taking from this is that THIS has to end, not only for our survival, but for our good. If this country doesnt change, then I will, and Ill leave as soon as I finish graduate school.
This is a nice country, there are a lot of good things. I really like the diversity that we have, and I like that we have, in theory, a lot of rights. But I dont like the ego that has kept this country in the past for so long that weve now essentially blown up.
Mitch Mitchell talking about Jimi and strats in general.
If the walrus is Paul then who is Carmen Sandiego?
Sorry, man. I just don't dig 4-doors. I do, however like big cars. This one just DOES it for me!REally, you hate 4 door cars? Too bad, more early to mid 1960's lincoln continentals for me then. they were featured in matrix and men in black i belive.
1963
There has got to be a 4 door car you like, just gotta look hard enough for one. But I'm biased as most of the time i have spent in a car has been in the back seat and I don't like tripping over the front seat to get to a cramped rear seat. Now if the rear seat was easy to get too, or I was the driver, i wouldn't mind that much.
"What we need are more people who specialize in the impossible "- Theodore Roethke
Or for people that are 6'5" tall and don't quite fit in the coupe version. My car isn't a taxi or a police car and I'm not qualified to be a grandmother.
I wanted the 2-door but it didn't fit. And I hate big cars so bigger wasn't an option. I just needed a little more head room and I got it in a car that is almost identical except for the slightly different roof line and an extra pair of doors..........Bill
My daily driver is a 4-door.
Well, if it's a 4-door you want, ahem, you should really consider the benefits of.... suicide doors.
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-pq...sing-Doors.jpg
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...3_8&refer=asia
GM, taking our money and using it to move to china.
I for one am glad to know that GM has the same level of consideration for its employees that the american people had for it.
Well, you guys who were screaming for the big bad evil unions to go away, for less regulations and lower corporate taxes, your wishes have been granted by the chinese government. Hope all the auto workers who lost their jobs to see your vision through was worth it.
Mitch Mitchell talking about Jimi and strats in general.
If the walrus is Paul then who is Carmen Sandiego?
WTF is your point redb? Are you joking?
If the evil unions went away along with less regulation, GM could stay here.
Im trying my best not to result to profanity to express my anger at general motors for taking OUR money and using it to abandon us.
They will move to china, where the workers will have no union, very little benifits and very low wages. The chinese government will allow GM to do pretty much whatever they want. Besides property taxes, which GM will almost certainly get an exemption for, taxes in china are very low.
Its exactly what some of the people in this thread said was what GM needed. I've tried laying out why I think this is an outdated and incorrect way of thinking, but I'm always dismissed as being some crazy hippie without the "valuable life lessons" that have left 98% of americans with almost nothing.
And now, the people who run GM will keep their jobs and salaries. The large shareholders will make some money. But at what cost? The american people, especially the autoworkers, good people are being fucked by GM. Am I angry? You bet I am, Im really angry.
This is a disaster, if GM wanted to move then they should have used their own money, not ours. I guess they dont feel any sort of corporate responsibility. They are the good little randian company that feels no tie to the community and cares only about the bottom line.
Mitch Mitchell talking about Jimi and strats in general.
If the walrus is Paul then who is Carmen Sandiego?
I agree with you.
AND It's not the just the auto industry
AND It's not just the fault of big business or Wall St.
It's because most people only want a cheap price, no matter what that will cost them down the road.
Walmart has proven this to be true.
Boy, am I glad you don't have too much power to alter the course of anything important!! You don't have a friggin' clue. All yuor doing is waving a flag and crying foul!!
CT.
I don't think you can blame the average citizen for choosing to buy a better product that costs less.
The problem lies in the lack of foresight from CEOs and politicians who demanded less and less regulation of the markets, to the point that practically everything we buy in the U.S. today is imported, we hardly make anything here anymore, and a whole class of people who used to make decent livings in the many U.S. factories are now unemployed and living below the poverty line -- unable to buy even the cheaper, foreign-made stuff we import from the countries their jobs went to.
This has been coming for years and years, and the people who could've done something about it either didn't want to because it wasn't profitable for them personally -- and to hell with the lower and middle class it was hurting or the long-term effects on the economy and the country -- or because it wasn't politically expedient.
You have to be blind to accuse me of protectionism or nationalism.
WE GAVE THEM MONEY, THEY OWE US. This is a special case. We gave them billions of dollars so they wouldnt implode and this is how they repay us? Youre being an apologist, and thats just laughable.
Im getting tired of being told that I dont have a clue by a person who apparently doesnt even read what I write. Go shove it, you have shown that all you do is contradict solid ideas that have been proven to work by companies in other countries or the policies of those countries themselves.
Thats just idiocy, which btw I have been trying very hard to just ignore from you. Most of your posts reek of the "I just pulled this from my ass without any real thought" smell.
Oh and just as a side point, if I were running a car company I would be doing exactly what the porsche group is doing. Which is exactly what Ive said in previous posts. Considering that they were the guys who made money last year, I would suggest that maybe I do have a clue?
Mitch Mitchell talking about Jimi and strats in general.
If the walrus is Paul then who is Carmen Sandiego?
Posting Permissions
