Navy 3, pirates zero

[elicross]

I actually didn't read in detail everything you posted. I was just adding a kind of general comment based on my impressions of what was being said. It seemed to me that there were two streams of thought and one was veering away from the idea that serious crime is... well, serious crime.

Okay.... I still don't see where you got the idea that anyone was saying piracy's not a serious crime, but fair enough.

There were lessons learned during the Bush years about this and if I were your president, my main concern would be protecting American crews from piracy and not meddling in the affairs of Somalia. Didn't the US already try that some time ago?

Okay, now you're trying to draw some equivalency between trying to fix what's wrong in Somalia and what the Bush administration did in Iraq. But I think you know that no one here who's been advocating addressing the root causes of piracy is suggesting we should invade and occupy Somalia. It should be obvious that those of us saying "you can't solve this problem with guns alone" aren't calling for war with Somalia. You've acknowledged that you haven't been reading the posts you respond to very closely, so maybe you missed that -- but I think you're being disingenuous here.

As for toxic dumping being the root cause of piracy on the high seas, let me just say that I am extremely skeptical.

Well, I personally haven't said and won't say toxic waste dumping is the sole cause of piracy in the Gulf of Aden. But I can certainly see how it could make many Somalis despise the West and come to see us all as an enemy to be exploited. Add lawlessness and crushing poverty, and you've got piracy.

You could look at Somalia as a giant macrocosm of our own inner cities, in the sense that anger, poverty, and hopelessness are at the heart of the crime there. You can arrest a whole army of inner city kids, but you'll never stop the crime without dealing with the root causes. That doesn't mean you don't police the inner cities, but policing is not enough.

[Cogs]

So if my buddy takes a shit in your backyard that gives you the right to steal from me...WTF???

Yes.
Once I caught a neighbor dumping some old motor oil on my side yard. So I went down the street & robbed some guy.

[elicross]

So, just to make sure I understand, there are moral justifications for one human being threatening to kill another human being for material gain?

That's a "yes"?

I'm not disagreeing, just wanting to understand.

Your question was answered the first time you asked it, but I'll answer it, too, the same way: No, there's no moral justification for one human being threatening to kill another human being for material gain.

I haven't said there is. No one here has said there is.

There are, however, causes. Causes aren't justifications, any more than an explanation is an excuse. Causes are what we have to deal with, here in the real world, if we want to stop piracy rather than just respond to it, over and over, while it gets worse and worse.

[thegeezer]

So if my buddy takes a shit in your backyard that gives you the right to steal from me...WTF???

If you allow it and sanction it and will kill the members of my family with your waste, what do you think. I am not condoning this behavior I am saying it does deserve investigation which is the only way to get to the root causes of this social behavior.

[doc540]

Your question was answered the first time you asked it, but I'll answer it, too, the same way: No, there's no moral justification for one human being threatening to kill another human being for material gain.

I haven't said there is. No one here has said there is.

There are, however, causes. Causes aren't justifications, any more than an explanation is an excuse. Causes are what we have to deal with, here in the real world, if we want to stop piracy rather than just respond to it, over and over, while it gets worse and worse.

So, until we're able to "deal with" any and all "causes" which might (or might not) prompt someone to threaten another human beings life for material gain, is an episode-specific use of lethal force an acceptable response to the actual act?

In other words, until we're able to "fix" all the "causes", should we continue killing pirates?

(a little dark humor)

[elicross]

In other words, until we're able to "fix" all the "causes", should we continue killing pirates?

Please read my posts in this thread, then ask again if you need to, and I'll be happy to go through my posts and quote everything I've already said that answers your question. Thanks!

[doc540]

Please read my posts in this thread, then ask again if you need to, and I'll be happy to go through my posts and quote everything I've already said that answers your question. Thanks!

Sorry, rhetorical question not addressed to you specifically. I just prefer concise, to-the-point, candid discussions.

To recap:

Piracy on the high seas is occurring.

We're killing pirates.

Should we continue to kill pirates?

Or should be stop killing pirates and address piracy by using other measures?

[thegeezer]

We have a right to live but if we can find a solution that will stop this activity without a lot of killing and which may mean taking responsibility if we have done something to cause this phenomena we should. I am looking for a permanent solution not vigilante mentality.

[doc540]

We have a right to live but if we can find a solution that will stop this activity without a lot of killing and which may mean taking responsibility if we have done something to cause this phenomena we should. I am looking for a permanent solution not vigilante mentality.

Is that a "yes" to "should we continue to kill pirates?" until a permanent solution is found?

[elicross]

Sorry, rhetorical question not addressed to you specifically. I just prefer concise, to-the-point, candid discussions.

Sorry, I thought since you quoted my last post before asking the question, that you were at least in part asking me.

Should we continue to kill pirates?

Or should be stop killing pirates and address piracy by using other measures?

With all due respect, it looks like -- in addition to concise, to-the-point, candid discussions -- you also prefer simplistic, black-and-white, either-or scenarios.

Why do you assume we have to do one or the other? Why can't we address the root causes of piracy and protect our ships in the meantime?

I don't see why we can't do both, and -- again -- I think any solution to the problem of piracy has to do both.

[thegeezer]

I think I addressed that, don't you?

[Offshore Angler]

Maybe we should just outsource our pirate hunting to the East India Trading Company.

[phantomman]

Maybe we should just outsource our pirate hunting to the East India Trading Company.

......Or Ghurkas!

[gibsonjunkie]

We could just avoid the area altogether. No shipping - no pirates...

[elicross]

...and no food shipments to people starving in Africa.

[Doc W]

Okay.... I still don't see where you got the idea that anyone was saying piracy's not a serious crime, but fair enough.


Okay, now you're trying to draw some equivalency between trying to fix what's wrong in Somalia and what the Bush administration did in Iraq. But I think you know that no one here who's been advocating addressing the root causes of piracy is suggesting we should invade and occupy Somalia. It should be obvious that those of us saying "you can't solve this problem with guns alone" aren't calling for war with Somalia. You've acknowledged that you haven't been reading the posts you respond to very closely, so maybe you missed that -- but I think you're being disingenuous here.


Well, I personally haven't said and won't say toxic waste dumping is the sole cause of piracy in the Gulf of Aden. But I can certainly see how it could make many Somalis despise the West and come to see us all as an enemy to be exploited. Add lawlessness and crushing poverty, and you've got piracy.

You could look at Somalia as a giant macrocosm of our own inner cities, in the sense that anger, poverty, and hopelessness are at the heart of the crime there. You can arrest a whole army of inner city kids, but you'll never stop the crime without dealing with the root causes. That doesn't mean you don't police the inner cities, but policing is not enough.

eli, you have got to stop taking this so personally. I don't even know what the hell you are arguing with me for. I draw some conclusions from what people say or suggest and you say "It wasn't ME." Okay, it wasn't you. Lighten up.

I never said anyone suggested an invasion of Somalia. What I said was that in a post-Bush, post-Iraq invasion era, there are a lot of people with burnt fingers who are very reluctant to make suggestions with regard to governance in any sovereign nation. One can draw that conclusion regardless of whether they were for or against the invasion of Iraq.

Yet, you suggest that Somalia is like a big inner-city neighbourhood and that inner-city neighbourhoods should be policed. Okay, by whom? That was a rhetorical question, by the way. I don't expect an answer.

In any case, as I said, I am not after you so stop being so goddam paranoid.