Navy 3, pirates zero

[elicross]

They haven't hijacked another U.S. ship yet. Maybe they only learned not to mess with us crazy cowboys.

[elicross]

I hear our congress is planing on wasting more of our tax money by having hearings on the matter in stead of just leaving it up to the military, I think they plan on calling Jonny Depp as the first whitness so they can get some real insight into the matter!!

...aaaaand another thread goes political for no apparent reason.

[Cogs]

Somehow this piracy thing must be America's fault, but I just can't see it yet.

[steve25]

You know your right about it being our fault, it must be something like the way we are always the first ones to get there and help out when other nations have natural disasters, or maybe its the way we top other nations spending in trying to stop the spread of AIDS by a money factor of 2 to 1!

[elicross]

Wait...who's suggested piracy in the Gulf of Aden is America's fault? I musta missed that.

[Iowegan]

They've had no functioning government since 1991, hence no 1st Amendment press freedoms. Sorry you didn't read about toxic waste dumping in Somalia on Fox News. You might have to read something outside the bubble of what passes for news in the US.

http://www1.american.edu/TED/somalia.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle418665.ece

http://www.benadir-watch.com/2005%20...ping_waste.pdf

[elicross]

SEAL snipers from 25 meters.

I saw a computer simulation on the news that suggests it might have been a lot trickier than it sounds. It showed the lifeboat rocking back and forth on the waves -- which, when you think about it, it probably did, and the deck of the ship the snipers were on was probably in motion, too. And it explained that the three Navy snipers took out the three pirates with one shot each, all at the same time. If any one of the shooters had missed or been too early or too late, one of the pirates could've realized what was happening and killed Capt. Phillips. 25 meters might be short range for U.S. military snipers, but that rescue still must've taken some serious skill.

[boobtube21]

I worked for a yachtbuilder for some years, and met a lot of people who were pretty well traveled.

One guy was telling me of a spot...I think around southeast Asia somewhere...where the fishermen will steer right across your bow because they think if they do that the bad luck will jump off their boat onto yours. Apparently some fisherman have been shot at because the yachtsman thought he was about to get robbed.

[Offshore Angler]

Let's not forget -there were some Air Force SOC guys there too. Those USAF SOC's are pretty tough hombres. The way this played out was much more along their lines of doing things. And fading into the shadows afterwards is pretty much in keeping with their way of doing business too.

[Mesotech]

I agree that times change and missions change, but in my copy of the Blue Jacket's manual, it's still written that protecting commerce on the high seas and keeping shipping lanes open is a prime mission of the Navy. The fact that we haven't needed to deal with pirates in over 200 years shouldn't absolve the mission, or disolve the Navy. One of the other missions of the Navy is to act as a deterrant to war (or piracy). Perhaps the fact that we DO have a Navy is what has caused us not to have been bothered by pirates in the past 200 years.

I don't believe we need to be everybodies Navy or attempt to take on the entire pirate problem for the world, but I do believe that we need to take care of our own. If by doing so, it helps solve the pirate problem for others, then great. If it doesn't, at least our vessels and crews will be safe and protected.

The talking heads on TV who advocate private security alternatives are certainly welcome to say so, and any commercial company that wishes to hire their own security should also be allowed to do so. However, that shouldn't give our Government a free shot to take a pass on protecting its citizens.

Jus ma 'pinion

[Cogs]

Wait...who's suggested piracy in the Gulf of Aden is America's fault? I musta missed that.

It's there. You just have to read between the lines.

[thegeezer]

This a problem that needs to be addressed I am not looking for fault but I am looking for potential reasons and solutions, big difference. More unneeded politics interjecting some one is pointing fingers.

[Offshore Angler]

geezer, this is a classic case of a politcal solution being in need. The root cause of the problem is the failure of government in Somalia. The pirates are a symptom, not the cause.

[thegeezer]

If that is the case let's keep an open mind and if we have been part of toxic waste dumping than we should help fix the problem hopefully without invading another country.

[elicross]

It's there. You just have to read between the lines.

I honestly can't tell if you're being ironic or not....

[muddy]

It's pretty simple, seek and destroy all the Somalia pirates. I could care less why they want to kill, kidnap and steal.

F-em I say, kill them all. All they understand is violence and it's time somebody put them in their place.

By doing nothing, they are encouraged and emboldened.

[thegeezer]

It's pretty simple, seek and destroy all the Somalia pirates. I could care less why they want to kill, kidnap and steal.

F-em I say, kill them all. All they understand is violence and it's time somebody put them in their place.

By doing nothing, they are encouraged and emboldened.

I guess they aren't the only ones that only understand violence.

[muddy]

I guess they aren't the only ones that only understand violence.

It's the reality of the situation and it will only escalate without decisive action.
Your right to a degree, you have to know when diplomicy and reasoning with certain factions is futile. Sad to say but pain or death is all these savages will understand.

It would be like trying to reason with a serial killer...?

[thegeezer]

It's the reality of the situation and it will only escalate without decisive action.
Your right to a degree, you have to know when diplomacy and reasoning with certain factions is futile. Sad to say but pain or death is all these savages will understand.

It would be like trying to reason with a serial killer...?

These savages are human beings with families and needs just like you. It's amazing what desperation will do to a head of household. The sad thing is WE don't know that much about their group to even negotiate with them. The world corporations need to make restitution where they do wrong. We need to be fair, just and open when dealing with so called savages.

[thegeezer]

By the way I am a Nam era Vet.

[gibsonjunkie]

I'm probably one of the more liberal people who posts here, but I can't ascribe to letting these vermin off the hook. They are predators, pure and simple. Sure, piracy would most likely disappear if the government was more stable, but it isn't. If they are going to attack innocent ships passing through international waters, then blow them the heck out of the water! It amazes me that 4 "kids" can take over a huge ship, but I realize with automated systems it doesn't take a huge crew to run a ship. A couple "mercs" loaded for bear would sure be a welcome addition to any crew sailing in those waters, I bet!

[muddy]

These savages are human beings with families and needs just like you. It's amazing what desperation will do to a head of household. The sad thing is WE don't know that much about their group to even negotiate with them. The world corporations need to make restitution where they do wrong. We need to be fair, just and open when dealing with so called savages.

First off "head of household" is about a ludicrous term for these thugs, secondly exactly what group should we be negotiating with?

Fair and open...are you serious?!

And what does bieng a Nam vet have to do with anything?

[thegeezer]

That means I have seen war have you? Secondly what if by chance we did pollute their land that would cause desperation in the household and third people shouldn't die because we decided they are the problem no matter what we did. This is all us and them type thinking, we have to at sometime consider a plan that considers a WE solution.

[Offshore Angler]

That means I have seen war have you? Secondly what if by chance we did pollute their land that would cause desperation in the household and third people shouldn't die because we decided they are the problem no matter what we did. This is all us and them type thinking, we have to at sometime consider a plan that considers a WE solution.

Yep, and I find it distracting that everyone is calling or blood, and nobody seems the least bit remorseful that the sitauation ended in the taking of lives. In fact, most people here seem to relish it.

If you've never been in a ravaged, third world country it's all to easy to think of the perpetrators as "those people". If they had grown up and living in the same circumstances, I'll bet that many who refer to them as animals might be doing the same thing. It's all to easy to sit here in our affluent, cultured society and pass judgement.

[doc540]

Would someone educate me by listing the legitimate, moral justifications for aiming a loaded gun at someone and threatening to killl them in order to rob, steal, or hold them for ransom?

(ready to take notes)

[thegeezer]

There is none but there is no justification for dumping toxic waste on third world countries either.

[steve25]

So I am listening to radio hear at work yesterday, a NPR classical station, and on the news break the anouncer is reading from Blumberg news what was written for her about the latest priate info, and she reads about how the priates other Colleges are now up in arms over the three priates being shot, yes they used the term Colleges as if there is a accredited university you can go to to learn how to be a priate.
Man this dam world is getting so F`ed up that we are not willing to offend even priates now!

[thegeezer]

What would we do if a country dumped waste in our country?

[Offshore Angler]

What would we do if a country dumped waste in our country?

Borrow money from them.

[elicross]

I'm sure it's clear from my previous posts that I have no problem at all with putting armed security on ships to defend them from pirates. When these pirates took a man hostage and held him at gunpoint for money, they opened themselves to the consequences of their actions. They gave the Navy no choice but to kill them, the same way a cop has no choice but to kill a criminal he sees pointing a gun at a civilian.

But I also recognize that putting guns on freighters and dealing with hijacking attempts when they happen only addresses the symptoms of the problem. I think it's a necessary and reasonable response, but it's not enough, any more than it's enough to take aspirin for a brain tumor. At this point, it doesn't matter whose fault it is that Somalia's a hellhole; if our ships are being hijacked, it's our problem, and we have to try and fix it, or at least be part of the solution. Unless we (the U.S., the U.N., NATO, whoever) deal with the cause of the problem, piracy's not going to stop. That's become clear in the past few days, with the pirates taking 60 hostages from non-U.S.-flagged ships and even firing on one U.S.-flagged ship.

In this respect, piracy's like terrorism; you might slow it down with a gun, you can sometimes defend yourself from it with a gun, but you can't stop it with a gun. You have to address the reasons why these people are so angry and/or desperate that piracy seems like a reasonable response. They weren't born savages or animals (despite the fact that they don't look like most of us) -- they were born human beings, and in the real world we can't "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out." That doesn't mean we shouldn't meet their force with force when they hijack a ship (or try to); it just means we can't fix the problem with force alone.

[Offshore Angler]

Would someone educate me by listing the legitimate, moral justifications for aiming a loaded gun at someone and threatening to killl them in order to rob, steal, or hold them for ransom?

(ready to take notes)

Doc, it's never that easy. Somebody might have an engine blow up in a race car. Ask Joe Average and they'll say it threw a rod and accept that as the answer. Well, that's only part of what happened. In reality, the wrist pin retainer was incorrectly installed, broke free, the pin scored the cylinder, the compression ring caught the scoring and broke off wedging the piston...and then the rod broke.

So look at these pirates. Would you ever hold someone at gunpoint for ransom? Of course not. Why?

Now ask yourself why these guys can do it? Can you really accept that they are inferior beings or that maybe, the conditions and circumstances that shaped their lives were so different than yours that they are capable of acts you would never consider.


Now, go back to the wrist pin retainer. Why was it improperly installed? The engine builder didn't do it to sabotage the engine, he's a good dude who wanted to do well. Was it bad instrunctions, training, was the phone ringing and distracting him?

My rule is always use the Five Why method. Ask why successively five times. The way to solve problem is to look for the root cause, otherwise they will always come back to haunt you. Only when you identify the root cause can you put measures in place to make sure an issue never happens again.

[Cogs]

We should try to understand them.
Then retailate w/blind rage.

[thegeezer]

A tooth for a tooth was old school, that was suppose to have changed with some wisdom and the evolution of social man.

[Doc W]

I think you guys are getting off track. Problems in Somalia need to be dealt with by Somalians with assistance from the rest of the world, if necessary. But the bottom line is that the civilian crew of ships in that part of the world need protection.

I reject the idea that the Somalian pirates are simply "po' folk" looking to feed their families. I can feed mine for considerably less than 4 million bucks and food is more expensive here. Political and social chaos allows many people with guns and greed and no regard for human life to have their way with whomever they want. For sure, the piracy is a symptom of political problems, but it is still a serious and dangerous crime.

[elicross]

I think you guys are getting off track. Problems in Somalia need to be dealt with by Somalians with assistance from the rest of the world, if necessary. But the bottom line is that the civilian crew of ships in that part of the world need protection.

I don't know for sure which of us you think is getting off track, but I'm going to assume you know from my posts that I agree with that.

I reject the idea that the Somalian pirates are simply "po' folk" looking to feed their families. I can feed mine for considerably less than 4 million bucks and food is more expensive here.

But these pirates presumably weren't just trying to feed one family. And if circumstances forced you to rob a bank to feed your family, and if you blamed the bank for those circumstances, would you say to the bank teller "I'm just trying to buy groceries for my wife and kids, so just give me $100 and I'll be on my way"?

The fact is, it's never so simple as "The pirates are just doing this to help their impoverished community" or "The pirates are just doing this because they're greedy." But this ain't the movies; people don't turn to a life of crime just because they were born bad. There's always a root cause for this kind of thing, and you can't stop it without addressing that root cause.

[Doc W]

I don't know for sure which of us you think is getting off track, but I'm going to assume you know from my posts that I agree with that.

Come on, eli, do you really think I would ever accuse you of being off track?

But this ain't the movies; people don't turn to a life of crime just because they were born bad. There's always a root cause for this kind of thing, and you can't stop it without addressing that root cause.

Hang on a sec. There is a root cause for everything but this is still a serious crime and very dangerous situation. You cannot have peace without security. Even the ritziest neighbourhoods need police.

In my opinion, it is pretty clear that a certain class of criminals have simply spotted an opportunity and, so far, have done quite well for themselves financially. If the world solved the problem of toxic waste dumping or solved the political problems in Somalia, but did nothing to deter piracy per se (which has proven very financially rewarding), we would still have piracy in the same part of the world. Maybe not by Somalians, but by "entrepreneurs" from elsewhere who can spot easy pickings.

[elicross]

Hang on a sec. There is a root cause for everything but this is still a serious crime and very dangerous situation. You cannot have peace without security. Even the ritziest neighbourhoods need police.

How on earth did you get "we don't need security" from anything I've posted? I don't think anyone here has said that.

Again, it's not a black and white, either-or situation, Doc. Addressing the root causes of piracy doesn't mean bending over and letting the pirates...um...board our ships in the meantime. Oncologists don't say "Should I remove the tumor, or should I give the patient drugs for his pain?" They do both. They treat the cause and the symptoms. And any attempt to address piracy has to do both.

[doc540]

So, just to make sure I understand, there are moral justifications for one human being threatening to kill another human being for material gain?

That's a "yes"?

I'm not disagreeing, just wanting to understand.

[melody]

There is none but there is no justification for dumping toxic waste on third world countries either.

So if my buddy takes a shit in your backyard that gives you the right to steal from me...WTF???

[Doc W]

How on earth did you get "we don't need security" from anything I've posted? I don't think anyone here has said that.

I actually didn't read in detail everything you posted. I was just adding a kind of general comment based on my impressions of what was being said. It seemed to me that there were two streams of thought and one was veering away from the idea that serious crime is... well, serious crime. As for the idea of root causes, whether or not it is the responsibility of your government to deal with root causes in a foreign and sovereign nation is a delicate question. There were lessons learned during the Bush years about this and if I were your president, my main concern would be protecting American crews from piracy and not meddling in the affairs of Somalia. Didn't the US already try that some time ago?

As for toxic dumping being the root cause of piracy on the high seas, let me just say that I am extremely skeptical. There are criminals who seize opportunities and that exactly is what is going on here in my opinion.