Discuss: Are combo amplifiers a compromise?

[CzarSketch]

I am reading through "The Ultimate Tone" by Kevin O'Connor, and I love it. It's everything you need to know in order to be SURE you know what's going on inside an amp. He makes the following claim:

"The combo amp represents the worst possible home for tubes, since most tubes will fail mechanically long before they fail electrically"

and later:

"Typically, combo amps do not give good distortion tones...They represent a compromise, and increased proximity noise is one of the trade-offs"

Ideally (in your opinion), is the combo amp inferior to the head/cab configuration? Discuss!

[CzarSketch]

I'll go first:

I love combo amps for their simplicity and their ease of use. Transportation is a breeze, weight is reduced (total, not per-item), and they are generally cheaper. Furthermore, you KNOW the speaker that comes with a combo is compatible with the output resistance. I am always afraid of a fatal mix-and-match with poorly documented heads or cabs.

On the other hand, I find heads easier to service, easier to shield, more versatile, and more forgiving when something breaks. And, it's nice to be able to have 4 or so heads that fit in the space of a single combo...

[Cogs]

I can't say that combos are inferior. I've enjoyed combos & head/cab configurations for many years & they both have advantages & disadvantages.

[phantomman]

I think he's fulla fucking shit.

And I base my opinion on four + decades of practical experience at the "end-user" level.

[thegeezer]

I think he's fulla fucking shit.

And I base my opinion on four + decades of practical experience at the "end-user" level.

1+

[CzarSketch]

I think he's fulla fucking shit.

And I base my opinion on four + decades of practical experience at the "end-user" level.

not exactly the constructive discussion i was hoping for, but i think a 40-year road test counts as some pretty substantial evidence!

Do you think he's entirely off-base, or is he looking at factors that really don't matter until you start to reach the extremes of reality, i.e. gigging 12 nights a week on the surface of the sun?

[Wilko]

He's partially right about the wear and tear aspect. A head is usually sitting on top a vibrating cab anyway, and thermal cycling, like taking your gear outside rigth after a gig will kill your tubes and such just as easy.

"do not give good distortion tones" That is just -to borrow a phrase "fulla fucking shit"

I guess he's never heard the benchmark distortion tones made by AC-15, AC 30, all the Tweeds from Deluxe to Bassman. The little SUpro that made Jimmy Page a household name.

Fuck this guy. He doesn't know shit.

I've only been gigging for 30 years, so I don't what I'm talking about. I spent most of those years with a SF Twin Reverb. The last 15 years or so has been with mostly Fender combos from the Vibrolux Reverb, Pro Reverb, Super Reverb and my main go-to Fender Combo, the 1964 Deluxe Reverb which is constantly on guitar pubs desert island amp short lists.
Othe combos that I gig frequently are small Vox Cambridge Reverbs and a Marshall 18 watt clone.

You ever here of a "bluesbreaker" combo? That shit put Clapton the map as "God"

[CzarSketch]

Hm. It might have been helpful to provide a little context to save this poor guy's book sales, the drop in which I may now be personally responsible for. Oops.

He defines distortion as full-on clipping, and in that context was talking about cascading gain stages and the noise created at each stage and the benefit of a shielded cage such as in a head versus a combo. His two gripes are tube life and noise. I don't think he's really of the opinion that combos produce WORSE sound. Just noisier. True? or only true on the surface of the sun on night 12 of a week-long tour?

But yeah. That don't excuse the exclusion of all those classic amps.

I'd still really recommend the book. It's incredibly technically savvy and opinions on combo/head styles aside, the knowledge is solid.

[Wilko]

If he were so technically savvy, he'd know that almost all combo amps share the same chassis as their head versions. How are combos not shielded as well as heads? My combo amps don't have full surround shielding boxes or cages?

He's full of shit.

full clipping and he's worried about noise? WTF?

[Pearly Grapes]

In theory he may be correct, altho I feel combos have better tube ventilation (in general) than most heads.
But in the 'Real World' (as opposed to 'in theory') I think both combos & head+cab are equally good at what they do.
FWIW
PG

[rudutch]

a 412 cabinet will add some depth and more bass to an amp...
I have had 3 heads, 3 cabinets and more combos than I can remember

If you have to move it, combos are the only way to go..
2x10's or 1x12 are a bunch easier too

[stratcat62]

It could be said all amps are a compromise. Open back vs closed back, combo vs stack, 10in vs 12in speakers etc. I'm with phantomman and I also have 40+ years of experience, he's full of shit.

[bignote]

+1 on what stratcat62 said!

[Doc W]

This author may be the same guy who thinks tone is vastly improved by spending tons of dough on a patch cord. I could never hear the difference between a good quality cord and a zillion dollar one. Maybe he tests amps in a lab or something but doesn't actually play guitar.

[phantomman]

Maybe he tests amps in a lab or something but doesn't actually play guitar.

I can picture some poindexter in a lab coat with a pocket protector and "Clark Kent" bi-focals......

[elicross]

Is he thinking that the speaker is better shielded from noise from the chassis in a head-cab rig versus a combo? With a head-cab rig, the chassis is farther removed from the speaker and has a couple of layers of birch+tolex (top of the speaker cab plus bottom of the head cab) between the chassis and the speaker. I don't know if that would reduce noise in any noticeable way...probably not nearly enough to cancel out the added convenience of a combo over a head-cab rig.

[dez]

I'm with the 'fulla shit" crowd.
Almost 30 years of gigging tells me I 'm not wrong in still using combos.

[steve25]

PHANTOMAN, you have to temper what you are saying with the 40+ years thing that guys like you and I have in common, with the fact that during those 40 or so years we have beed graced with our amps still being power with well built original tubes or replacement NOS ones.
Just last month had 3 new JJ long plate preamp tubes go badly microphonic, 2 while the amp chassie was being worked on sitting on a bed of foam on my repair bench, the other one just before the amp I built for a friend was being givin to him.
It was a combo amp, all of 8 watts and after just 4 hours of playing the tube was bad.
I have no dought that vibration in a combo in the least kills or leads to the shorts in most output tube failures in these amps.

[pc]

I'm definitely in the school of thought that both have advantages. The closed back cab I was using with my two-head rig was a definite benefit to the band members on stage behind me, and there was a good deal more bass response in my tone.

But for me personally I greatly prefer the sound of a tube amp combo for gigs, and after a couple experiments with the head/cab thing, I always go right back to one or two combo amps as my gig rig. For my tastes they are a far better (sonic) home for tubes than amp heads w/cabs.

[Don]

In over 30 years of playing I've never owned a head/cabinet, only combos!

I need to get out more!

[CzarSketch]

oy, maybe it was a stupid question to bring up--it sounds like its resulting in a lot of personal offense.

And I'm not sure why I keep defending the guy, except that it feels like his entire body of work is being judged on two quotes I posted, and that's really not charitable nor fair.

His building philosophy is actually very measured--build a circuit that has high reliability, fill it with components that have a good price:performance ratio, none of this $50 for a piece of wire business.

I'd suggest more now than before that you check out the book, if only to see where he's coming from.

[curtisstetka]

I don't have any experience at all with an amp that isn't a combo. I think what set some people off here was the author's language. "worst possible..." and that bit about combos not giving ideal distortion tones.

I think you could make a case that a combo puts the tubes closer to the speaker and that affects them to some extent. Is it an extent worth getting upset about? Probably not at all. So, saying "worst possible home" for tubes is kind of silly.

The other point about the arrangement inside a combo amp leading to more noise may be somewhat valid as well, but again, I seriously doubt it's even noticeable to many people or that great a point of concern either.

I like combos because they're simpler, self-contained, easier to transport.

[CzarSketch]

For gigging I can see it as a total non-issue. I'm always going to go with what's convenient.

When recording, though, if I've got 3 guys each mic'ed up separately and coming in at different times, there's always the possibility of background noise that I won't feel like trying to get out of the final mix. If a head/cab arrangement were the secret here, we'd all be using them in the studio, I guess.

Personally, I think the worst possible home for tubes is in my garbage disposal...

[hippiebob01]

I'm just a youngin' but I have had no problems gigging with any of my amps. I have a 5E3 clone, a piggyback Bassman rig, and a DRRI.

The combo does have an advantage in that it's an "all-in-one" package, as opposed to a half stack or piggyback rig that is in 2 or more pieces. I suppose this could be a disadvantage for the combo in some cases, such as the Super Six.


The DRRI and the Bassman have different sounds, and I use them for different things. I don't think that one is particularly better than the other. Sure, the DRRI and 5E3 are better portability wise, but it's not really that much more work to carry around the Bassman rig.

As far as microphonic tubes, I've had them happen in only one amplifier - One of those God forsaken "Twin-Amps." 'Twas a Groove Tube™©®

[muddy]

All amps are a trade-off and have pros / cons.

I'll jump on most any deal that sounds good to me and is the right price and yes I've played head / cab & combos.

That said, I'm leaning towards a good head and cabinet of my choice for my next rig. More flexibility regarding different speaker combos and I do think heads hold up better over the long-run. More bomb proof imho.

[Yardbird Mac]

I'm just a youngin' but I have had no problems gigging with any of my amps. I have a 5E3 clone, a piggyback Bassman rig, and a DRRI.

The combo does have an advantage in that it's an "all-in-one" package, as opposed to a half stack or piggyback rig that is in 2 or more pieces. I suppose this could be a disadvantage for the combo in some cases, such as the Super Six.


The DRRI and the Bassman have different sounds, and I use them for different things. I don't think that one is particularly better than the other. Sure, the DRRI and 5E3 are better portability wise, but it's not really that much more work to carry around the Bassman rig.

As far as microphonic tubes, I've had them happen in only one amplifier - One of those God forsaken "Twin-Amps." 'Twas a Groove Tube™©®

I had one of those from 1972 - 1976. It was my "grab & go" amp at the time ('cause it was my ONLY amp at the time). I loved it, but the weight and lack of portability became an issue. My stereo sounded good through it though - LOL.

[elicross]

The combo does have an advantage in that it's an "all-in-one" package, as opposed to a half stack or piggyback rig that is in 2 or more pieces. I suppose this could be a disadvantage for the combo in some cases, such as the Super Six.

Talk about an exception to every rule! Man, I wouldn't want that thing rolling down a loading ramp at me.

[Cygnus X1]

Sick...looks photoshopped, but I have seen one.

O'Conner is usually great, but I too take exception.
I took the same exact head build of my own Cygnus-7 and
put into an orphan Sunn combo amp.
(Alpha 112)...which I had a 5E3 circuit in prior.

Bottom line is although the Cygnus will sing, it gives up a
sweet natural sustain easier in the combo than a split head/cab.

Sure it is hard on the tubes, but my theory is (like a great guitar),
it resonates from the interaction of the mechanical vibration of the cab
to the mechanical nature of the tubes.

One amp I am familiar with is the Mesa Mark II combo-that strong sustain is there in
the combo, but other Mesa's don't quite get it in the head/cab config.

Another is one I have mentioned many times, the 67 DR.
Gives up certain tone on its own, but I mainly play it though a 2x12 cab.
I serve it no justice because I usually run pedals through that rig.
Just looking for more low end there.

[Cogs]

Sick...looks photoshopped, but I have seen one.

That's exactly what I thought, lol
My 2nd thought was dang that's a lot of grillcloth.

[Rickenjangle]

Sick...looks photoshopped, but I have seen one.

That may be photoshopped, but they really ARE that tall, and if I'm not mistaken, had that pair of handles on the side, stock.

My buddy has one that's been CUT (!) into a 2x10 combo with a 4x10 extension cab. Now, I'm sure that the impedence is all over the map, but the speakers have been replaced with those orange-cone JBL's too. That amp is loud, bright, and clean, even with only using the 2x10's...

I would LOVE to have an original Super Six like the one in the picture...just for bragging rights!!

[CocoTone]

Freddie King used a Super Six quite a bit. Awesome amp, but tyou need a forklift to move it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHXKlNP4-Aw

CT.

[Yardbird Mac]

I don't believe that photo is altered in any way. Mine was as tall as a small refrigerator and probably as heavy. In some ways I wish I still had it. It sounded great with a Les Paul (once you get both dialed in). If I had it, it would probably not ever leave the house. Some days my SCXD feels too heavy.

I'm glad we're in an age where smaller amps rule.

[Totally bored]

Just cause the guy wrote a book and has a opinion don't mean he is right.

I think he's fulla fucking shit.

And I base my opinion on four + decades of practical experience at the "end-user" level.

Classic.

You da Man PM.

[Cygnus X1]

Well, Roger is right.
But K. O'Connor has put out a righteous set of books.

Too many "amp guru's" have kept theory close to the vest...even if the theory is as old as dirt.

Problems always arise when they express opinions.
It's just that, an opinion.
90% good does not mean I have to pay attention to the 10% opinion.

I would agree that a cab environment is harsh on the tubes.
But I think (as I said) it contributes to tone.

[Cygnus X1]

That may be photoshopped, but they really ARE that tall, and if I'm not mistaken, had that pair of handles on the side, stock.

You missed my point.

I said it LOOKS photoshopped, but I have seen one myself.
They are indeed that tall.

[Coque]

I think he's fulla fucking shit.

And I base my opinion on four + decades of practical experience at the "end-user" level.

+1 on that!

I'm a combo freak. After lugging half-stacks and full stacks during the late 80's through mid-90's, I can honestly say I'm in love with my low-wattage combo amps, and not just because of the weight! I love the tones from my DRRI and Pro jr.

[wingnut1]

I have both combo and head amps, and while I like both of them, the combos get played a lot more.

[Offshore Angler]

I have to go with the FOS crowd. And remember, all amp models are unique and have their signature tone. When people make the one sounds better than the other arguments - who decides what sounds better?

As far as the design aspects totally FOS. Remember, when tube amps were developed all radios and televisions were tube. They didn't have heads and cabs. Tubes can take a lot more vibration than some discreet components. They are not ESD sensitive. In short, they can take a real beating. Thin about it, you amp takes more impulsive loads when it gets moved and carted about than played, and it doesn't matter whether its a head or combo.

Heat effects vary more by individual design than open vs closed. Some combos run hot, some heads cool, and vice versa. The heat aspect is more about having your tubes properly biased. If the chassis runs hot, that's the first thing I'd check.

The ONLY advantage I can see to a head/cab is that it allows you the flexibility of choosing open or closed-back cabs ( or both ). If you are into that low-end whomp only closed back will do.

[Kap'n]

Kevin O'Connor, in general knows his stuff technically. Way more than some celebrated amp gurus.

IMHO, contrary to the titles of his books, he doesn't know shit about tone, and has a really abrasive, dogmatic manner.

I'd look to him for the implementation of a circuit, but I'd never look to him for inspiration.

Anyway, my two cents is that out of dozens of amps, I've only oned one head/cab rig in my lifetime - a blackface Showman. My least favorite tube rig ever. Sure did look cool, though.

Virtually all of my favorite guitar sounds, live and recorded are from combo amps.

[melody]