You ALL should be ashamed.
You ALL should be ashamed.
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
Originally Posted by MMP
NO STAIRWAY!!!!!
No Stairway, Denied http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WStE470Nu4s
I'll use the "May I help you riff"
LOL Waynes World!!!!
I have heard better in GC.He is so in love with hissef.NO STAIRWAY!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKlEV...eature=related
CT.
Hey, those guys are good. Are they in a band? Which Guitar Center is that? I could swear they look familiar.
"I haven't slept for ten days...because that would be too long." -- Mitch Hedberg
I was at that Concert in 83. ARMS Concert @ MSG. That was the only time I got to see Jimmy Page and Jeff Beck live. We got there late because we where drinking Thunderbird wine with locals out front and missed Clapton's set as he came on 1st. Whatever. wasn't into Clapton then but we where huge fans of Beck and Page.
I prefer, "My guitar's gonna kill your mama..."Here's my take on the situation.
"Shut up and play yer guitar." - Frank Zappa
I agree, Frank.
Thanks for listening.
As far as the OP goes... there's a fine line between myth and reality.
I've played some MIM Fenders that beat most Americans, and others that were only good for kindling. Heck, I've played vintage guitars the same way - if it wasn't 20 (30, 40 + ) years old, it wouldn't be worth a cent.
When I got my AmStd Strat (one of the last in 2000/01 befre they switched specs) I played 3 just like it (black /rosewood board) plus 2 more of the new (at the time) American Series, same specs. All 5 of them played and sounded a little different. None bad, mind you, just different. Of course I got the one that felt the best to ME. The next guy down the path may have thought a different one was best.
********************************
"Do you call sleeping with a guitar in your hands practicing?"
"It is if you don't drop it."
- Trent Lane, Daria, Episode 1-2.
Now I am not drunk very much. Ive got to say that i still have doubts about whether if you play a bunch of Strats you can find a better one. Heres my reasoning- they are all made out of the same grade kiln dried hunk of alder or ash tree. I beg to differ with Zhangligun, but its just wood of the same grade. Its all CNC routed by machines, then slathered with gobs of primer, upon which layer after layer of tone smothering Polyurethane is slathered on it. [/I]
I think the reason some of you may have played many and found a better one is that there are inconsistencies to how the neck is bolted onot the body, or also how the guitar plays. These are nothing whatsoever except set up issues. A guitar should automatically be sent to a great tech after purchse for a pro set up anyway.
Placebo. Period. They all play and sound identical after set up. they are cookie cutter guitars and ther is 101% absolutely no variation.It simply isnt worth it to waste your time and edffort looking for "THE" one. Hell, just get a proffesional ( and the key here is "proffesional") set-up.This is my primary thesis based only on inductive reasoning, and I am going to ride with it.
I also disgree wholeheartedly that a new custom shop can sound as good as an old guitar from the golden age of fender( up through wher the guitars were 100% hand sculpted ( 1961?).This is purely gut instinct takeing inot consideration alot of the variables present which differentiate the procceses of construction and ageing
.
Now, for the schocker; Every fender guitar made since 1980 is tone dead. I realise thats going to be real popular(not) , but i believe it with all my heart. Haveing recently played a 50's maple neck original Strat , and haveing owened 80's Strats and assembled Warmoths with the best compononts, I truly believe all classic and new production ( i do not know about custom shops) guitars are close to 70% tone dead.This always gets me into trouble to say, since folks are so attached to their guitars and have spent their hard earned money on them. I would like to remind you I am i the same boat. All of my Strats are all newer production tone dead, but i still love them and play them.
As far as someone commenting on how nice a Jimmy Vaughan Strat sounds? Please, bro. I have one.These guitars are very marigianl in their ability to create true lovely Start Vintage style tone. They are very nice players though.
As far as tone dead vintage guiatrs? I don't buy it. Have them set up by a pro.
Last edited by jerryjg; 01-17-2009 at 05:46 PM.
I reckon I disagree wif pret-near ever'thang you jus' said. But I'll defend until any saloon's "las' call fo' alkeehol" yer right to say it.
The next round's on you BTW, pard!
"When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."
Drunk again? Or still?
Jerry, you shoot your own arguments dead when you admit they're just based on gut instinct, not experience. You say you know nothing about Custom Shop guitars, and you say you've played one 1950s Strat and owned some 1980s Strats and some Strats you built yourself -- but your gut tells you that all pre-1961 Strats are better than all new Custom Shop Strats, and all Strats of the same model are identical....
That doesn't work. Gut instinct works for things like "That guitar up there on the wall looks really well made; I'll bet it plays and sounds good, too." It doesn't work for sweeping statements about whole classes of guitars that contradict other people's experience.
"I haven't slept for ten days...because that would be too long." -- Mitch Hedberg
No sir. Not drunk. I have decided Im actually earnest on these couple of points.Drunk again? Or still?
i think there are still the "lucky accidents" out there where production tolerances happened to stack up right,wood was better,production worker not in a hurry or hung over or thinkin about his girlfriend,yada,yada,yada cause they are not all the same.
When I was shopping for a Dano U-2 reissue (plywood and Masonite, remember?) I tried six or seven of them in a shop and they all sounded a little different from each other. Really!
The way modern strats are manufactured has created greater consistency and most certainly a professional setup will improve both playability and tone of any of them but I can't agree with the thought there is no difference. There are simply too many variables that contribute to what we call tone that all will sound alike.
For the record I own a 62, a california series and modified AmDlx (actually my #1). All different and all good.
Interesting thread and thanks for bringing it up.
_____________________
Shut up and play yer guitar - Frank Zappa
Any one that can't hear a differnce between same model strats IMO has a TIN EAR they do sound different. Sure most in a bunch will or should have a similar signature type sound ,but some sound better than others. And it is best to try as many as ya can before buying one or any guitar or amp even.
One motto of mine "play before ya pay"
ones too many and a hundred is not enough!
Never met a Strat I didn't like. Gotta pick her up and Fondle.
Just sayin.
Just to add more mayhem. There is much truth that some feel better right away and others are good are you get used to them.
Fact is, they all sound different. Some can hear it, some can't.
Just like we're all made up of the same stuff and are very different!
Right Don, or cars.
Talk about machine-built and "exactly the same," yet why do car enthusiasts tell me that cars of the same make & model year are great and some are dogs?
A guitar is even more likely to vary because each piece of wood is from a different part of the tree or of course different tree. Unlike the steel (or plastic) of a car, the tree was once a living thing and no two of those (like Don says) are the same.
So everything Fender made after 1980 is a tone turd? What a pile of crap! All guitars with their wood, hardware, electronics and of course a guitar player have a unique mixture and can indeed sound good.
Let us not forget how many guitars are made with this formula - speaking a slab of wood with a neck bolted on and a bunch of electronics and there are great sounding guitars and players out there.
It is just like the guy that told me this summer that my car was not a true sports car since the engine is in the back and it has under 300 horsepower. Well he had a front engined Ferrari with well over 300 horsepower and I consistently beat has pants off around the track with a 210 horsepowerwith car that had an engine in the back.
He still thinks my car is not a true sports car but he still eats my dust.
My Strats all soud great. They all look cool. I am sure guys in the Les Paul Forum will disagree and that is OK. They have their opinions but they are certainly not general statements!
Just my 0.02. General statements like this should be used for exactly what we are doing here - discussing the reality....
I am going to go have a beer now!
"Sorry" - John Belushi as he smashed a guitar in Animal House
There's an awful lot of hair-splitting that happens in these types of discussions. About all of it becomes meaningless with more study and practice.
"...pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field;
that, of course, they are many in number; or that, after all, they are other than the little,
shriveled, meagre, hopping, though loud and troublesome, insects of the hour."
-Edmund Burke
None of it matters compared to making music! In fact, other than your equipment functioning, it has little to do with macing music.
Everybody knows that Porsche horsepower count double.
Erock's Euro 0.02 doesn't exactly count double. But at least 30% more.Everybody knows that Porsche horsepower count double.
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
Took the words right out of my fingers. I was going to add that outside of a functioning instrument that intonates, the rest is up to the player.
I've witnessed too many occasions where the artist made all the difference. At my last lesson, for instance, my teacher wanted to try my Squier CV 50s Tele through my Tweed Pro. There was an instantly different sound just with touch and note choice, everything else being equal.
Same goes for the live music I hear around my area. Lots of seemingly cheap or unpopular gear, yet the music is always good, if not amazing.
"...pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field;
that, of course, they are many in number; or that, after all, they are other than the little,
shriveled, meagre, hopping, though loud and troublesome, insects of the hour."
-Edmund Burke
Are you comparing amplified to unplugged tone?
I would think once you plug in, the same model guitar from the same factory with the same parts the slight difference in wood would make little difference on the tone.
First thing I do when checking out a guitar is play it unplugged. Listen for the resonance. JMHO
I actually spend a fair amount of time practicing with an unplugged electric. I believe it helps me squeeze the tones I want out of the instrument, rather than out of the amp or effects. JMO...
And yeah. Some guitars, due to the luck of the draw in wood mismatches, fight themselves and get cross resonances and the like. I'm firmly in the camp of, "If they don't sound good acoustically, they probably wont' sound that good plugged in."
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".
-Dave Barry
If it's the same player, then yes. If it's two different players, no way.
Great exercise for concentrating on getting your hands to make the sounds instead of a piece of gear in the signal chain.
"...pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field;
that, of course, they are many in number; or that, after all, they are other than the little,
shriveled, meagre, hopping, though loud and troublesome, insects of the hour."
-Edmund Burke
I can't imagine what JJ Cale (click here to see him playin' a Harmony Sovereign with the back knocked out of it, a lump of wood bolted to the back of the top and 5 pups stuck in it) or Seasick Steve (click here to see him playin' a floorboard!) or would think of this discussion... it's hilarious... I do - however - subscribe to pseudocat's theory about how an electric resonates acoustically is a good general indication of how it's gonna behave when you plug it in - that's why I asked to try the Tele in my avatar through an amp and eventually bought it... and no offense Jerry - but if I was actually discussing this in a bar I'd of either changed the subject or found somewhere else to drink by now
If I could find a road to get away it wouldn't be too soon....... Shipwreck Moon.......
If you know how to play, you can make any guitar sound good. Seriously.
Absolutely. I remember reading an article by some session player who had made some recordings when he had cheaper gear and compared more recent recordings, when he had more expensive gear. He was blown away by how much his sound had stayed the same. He concluded that no matter what he played, it would sound like him. I know there are variables at play here, but his experience is enlightening.If you know how to play, you can make any guitar sound good. Seriously.
It's the sound in yer head - and I agree with both you and Chris - when I was first starting out I used to trip into a big store called Muscara Music in Belleville, NJ (at least once a week - it was an old Grand Union supermarket just loaded with stuff) and there was an older guy there called Bill who could plug anything into anything and make it sound good... the only thing I'd add to what Chris said is that a good player will notice dead spots more than most novices... the other side of the coin is if a guitar is consistent a good player will know how to get what he wants out of it - hell... I used a Yamaha Pacifica 112 for coupla years until I cracked the basswood body somewhere near the trem claw and it had a nasty ring to it... OK - I'd thrown a handful of SD's in it but I did loadsa gigs and recorded with it... it was all I had during some lean times but it worked fine with a SOB head and an old Laney 4x12 with orig greenbacks... a good straight rock rig was that! I've still got that neck - it's going on a Tele body next week...
If I could find a road to get away it wouldn't be too soon....... Shipwreck Moon.......
Actually...those Pacifica's are great guitars.
At least the two I played were quite good.
Some famous guitarist who's name I can't remember was quoted in a guitar mag as saying "all guitars are born dead". The point being that it takes playing over time to give a guitar "life".
I think this is true.
Yamaha are an exception to most rules - they're an engineering company... you couldn't get a gnat's you know what down either side of the neck join... the neck's about 14 yrs old now and the frets are in amazing shape given how much use it's had... OK - it's the other end of the spectrum from a nice vintage piece - but I'll get some more blues out of it...
If I could find a road to get away it wouldn't be too soon....... Shipwreck Moon.......
Yep, especially if it's built pretty light. Ferdinand Porsche built things simple, effective and with high performance.Everybody knows that Porsche horsepower count double.
That said, any guitar that Leo Fender designed has twice the tone jsut because he built things simple, effective and with high performance. He was da man. So there!
"Sorry" - John Belushi as he smashed a guitar in Animal House
I love drunk posting.
Yeah, I agree with No. 1. Not looking to start any arguments here, but in general, sure, I find I dig American Fenders more than their MIM counterparts. That said, there's nothing inherently wrong with the MIM instruments -- I just like the overall sound and feel of the US-made products better.
I'm sure I could learn to be happy with a Classic Series instrument. Good stuff there.
Peace to all. Keep up the drunk posting.
Tom
Like a lot of opinions I think there's probably a little bit of reality & personal voodoo mixed together in the original post.
I think the MIM Strats (at least the reissue ones, IMO) are great guitars & I'd rather own one of them than a US RI. After all, neither one is really an accurate replica, so it's just a matter of what details you feel like overlooking.
But the USA Standard Strats DO have a little more attention to detail paid to them as far as fit & finish goes. The ones I've played, & I'll admit I haven't played many, seem to have smoother edges on the necks which tells me that someone spent more time sanding the thing to get it that way. The frets are smoother, too, & lack that gritty feeling when you are bending notes. I also think the finishes are better, too. They are just crafted better all around.
And to a great degree a wall of new Strats are going to be very similar & to many people one will do just as good as another. It's only after years of playing that certain preferences are established & folks notice subtle differences in weight & feel. I knew a guy that went through guitars like tissue paper. He was always complaining about the neck on one (shoulders & such) or the weight or balance of another, or the p'ups in yet another. After a year or so I realized that he'd gone through a half a dozen guitars, all of which were GREAT players in MY book, though maybe not my preference, but I can't recall having ever heard him play! What a trip. I came to the conclusion that he was nit-picking as an excuse for not getting down to the hard labor of practicing his instrument & learning how to play. I realize that this was an extreme case in which the guy was downright pathological in his avoidance. I think we all like to tweak stuff & get it to our liking but there is a point after which you just have to get over it & play the dang thing.
Point #3 is just absurd & I've never heard anybody say that, ever.
#4? Custom Shop Strats (& I'm sure Teles, too) are great guitars, if too expensive. There's just something about a vintage guitar, though, that makes me tingly. Maybe it IS just superstition, but a well set up vintage Tele or Strat is just magical. From the first one I ever played to the most recent, if I get to spend enough time w/it & play it, I invariably begin to think about all the hands that may have been on it; I think about all the licks & songs that may have been played on it, what clubs & venues it may have seen, & what kind of bands it might have been in. Yeah, this stuff goes through my head while I'm soloing & stuff. When I play I'm not in some kind of trance, you know. This ain't the '70s, lol.
#5: I don't know. Maybe tone is in the medial geniculate nucleus or the primary auditory cortex . It could be in your fingers or your ears, but if you are playing crappy gear your fingers & ears are going to tell you to change the parameters of your crappy gear.
That's what *I* think.
Last edited by Cogs; 01-19-2009 at 04:02 PM.
Quality ranges in MIMs and MIAs--according to where you are and what guitars you have a chance to check out.
I found a shop in Germany with a wall of lefty Fenders. I played three or four Am Stds and the same number of MIMs. All of the Am Stds has frets sticking out over the fretboard, but MIMs were smooth. I'm not claiming this is a general rule, but this is just one experience. My MIM is well-built and was setup to play when I pulled it out of the box. I got lucky.
Don't get me riled about this one... it's 'cause the FMIC - on the general whole - ship any 'USA made' crap they know they won't get away with selling Stateside - to Europe... and've been doing it for years... a punter in Europe who's being playing 5 minutes but has a little bit o' dough says to himself "the USA made one's bound to be better" based on the fact that so much hullabaloo is made of where it's made that - hey presto - everyone's made their money and the poor sap's none-the wiser and won't find out for years... I see it happen all the time - and even sadder yet - have had to listen to it too
If I could find a road to get away it wouldn't be too soon....... Shipwreck Moon.......
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