Neck Shim

[Floyd.lt]

OK. Again with the neck..
After playing a '86 Japan Squier, with low action, no string buzz and excellent sound I decided to fix the damn MIM neck once and for all.

First of all, the standard fender settings don't work at all. String buzz and shitty playability occurs. The only way to make it playable is by making the saddles high (I don't think I could set them higher..) and making the neck more bowed than Fender suggests. (and it's still on 9-42)

The neck feels tilted the headstock way up.



As you can see the action is kinda high, but it doesn't work if not :) .

Will a neck shim improve the setup? (Nothing worked so far)

I want to string it with regular 10-46 strings and I'm worried it won't work (and the very high action is killing me.)

Does anyone have any suggestions?
(this is the first guitar I'm working on my own)

[CJ Neel]

Shim the neck at the heel. It'll bring it where it should be...

Also check your relief after you do this, along with checking your frets. It could need a fret dress too.

[Floyd.lt]

Checked the neck a little closer now and it's tilted (by comparing to the pickguard's side). The headstock really goes up.
Like example no.2

The frets are good. I wont touch them

EDIT: 4 CJ Neel
By saying the heel you mean closer to the body? So it will be more like no.3?
(just making myself clear )

[CJ Neel]

Like I said, shim the neck heel. It'll end up more like example 3.

[JAM]

The neck feels very uneven, because it is uneven. The neck feels tilted the headstock way up.

Can you give a better description of "uneven"? Neck tilt is one thing, but I'm not sure what you're describing. Something doesnt seem right. My Strat necks are set up with almost no relief, and the action doesnt have to be high to play well. Though you may have a different idea of what a high or low action is.

[Floyd.lt]

Am. Because the action is way high - the string hight increases a lot from the first to last fret. It's like no.2 in the picture.

(I will edit this out )

[CJ Neel]

Take a medium pick, or a business card, or a piece of 60 grit sandpaper, and put it in the heel end of the pocket. It'll raise the heel and give you a better angle. Adjust the saddles to give you the string height you want. Check the relief.

[Wilko]

Something ain't right. You said you did what Fender recommends and it doesn't play right.

If you set the action per their specs, it would be fine.

Are you sayingt hat you couldn't set the action and relief like they recommend?

[Floyd.lt]

4 Wilko:
It plays.. But with a lot of buzz.

I took of the neck. There were no shims. Tried a couple.. I'm not really satisfied... any suggestions?

[Floyd.lt]

Removed the shim I added and the action is lower and it plays better...
Maybe something good happened when i removed the neck and now it plays quite good. It's a miracle

[Wilko]

You'll figure out this setup thing and be very happy when you do.

It's best when it's not an accident, eh?

Here's a drawing I worked up about fixing an old Fender neck (same rules apply to relief instead of the high fret area band shown)



b. and c. will both buzz.

[Floyd.lt]

So all of these setup options are good? And I can try each one of them?

[CJ Neel]

Sure...And like Rick sez, once you get how to do it, you'll be able to quickly get just about any guitar playable very quickly. And you'll find that something that was unplayable might just be that guitar.

[Wilko]

So all of these setup options are good? And I can try each one of them?

No, like it sez at the bottom. B. and C. will buzz.

What you want is a straight enough neck so the higher frets aren't closer to the strings than the lower ones.

[Wilko]

A. and D. are what you want.

If you add relief, you'll do D with the shim moved to the other end of the pocket.

[chuckocaster]

you should drill out the neck mounting holes in the body, so they are JUST big enough to push the neck screws through. this will make it so that when you bolt the neck on, it is clamped down properly, and won't move. i do this on all my bolt neck guitars because that is how it used to be done.

[Floyd.lt]

you should drill out the neck mounting holes in the body, so they are JUST big enough to push the neck screws through. this will make it so that when you bolt the neck on, it is clamped down properly, and won't move. i do this on all my bolt neck guitars because that is how it used to be done.

Thanks for the tip. The holes are already big enough to push the screws through.

[chuckocaster]

then you're good to go.

[alanfc]

So if my action at the first fret is 1/64",
and the action at the last/highest fret is 5/64",

and I've got buzz on every note on the board - - especially frets 12 and higher, a sitar type sound...

I want to Shim? or, do I want to try raising the nut slot with a test of some kind first (a bit of paper in the slot, before getting a new nut if thats the solution) ...
Thanks

[Wilko]

shim will not help that situation, your fretboard will still have the same shape.

[alanfc]

OK thanks, so then its a fret level issue
maybe?
My action on the wound strings at the 12th fret is 5/64 and on the unwound about 4/64. I went up to size .011's and it hasn't helped

[boobtube21]

I find the best thing to do first is get the neck straight. If some frets buzz, and others don't, like Rick sez your fretboard shape is your problem. Whatever fret buzzes first, I believe the issue lies with the fret just below it. Moot point though.

Here's what I posted in another thread a while back:

Well, I'll tell you how I do it: Full on seat-of-the-pants.

First I set the truss rod so that when pressing the first fret (low E string) with my left pointer finger, and the body fret with my right pinky, I tap the string on the 6th or 7th fret with my right pointer finger, and if it "feels" like it's close enough (.3mm is probably about what I'm feeling for).

I read this in a book called "The Guitar Handbook". If you don't have this book you should go get it, it's got a lot of great information in it. Some of it's a tad outdated but the stuff about guitar setup never goes out of style. I think they give you an actual measurement to go by but I do okay with "feel".

Then I set the action on all strings (in an arc, trying to visually follow the fretboard radius) as low as I can before the strings:

A)buzz

B)"fret out" or "choke out" when I bend up 3 or 4 half-steps up on the G, B, and high E strings.

[alanfc]

excellent thanks.
I know my relief is higher than .013 with my homemade guitar-string feeler guage

[sixstringmonk]

as per this post my 2008 Paisley reissue had really low saddles with protruding set screws so I decided to try to tackle the problem by shimming the neck. Two cuts of business card provided enough angle to get the saddles up, however now I'm getting some buzz near the neck joint (15-20th frets) on the high E string on full step bends. The guitar has a 7.25" neck. I have the action on the high E set to about 1.9mm. I'm currently using 9s. Using a Stew Mac fret rocker, I can tell that the frets aren't 100% perfect, but there is only a very tiny amount of rocking on some of the frets. I don't think the frets are uneven enough to be causing the problem.

From my experience on non-shimmed necks, buzz at the neck joint usually means too much relief. Does this rule still apply to shimmed necks, or does the altered geometry change this rule of thumb? That being said, I've tried adjusting the neck about as flat as it can go without buzz on frets 1-3.

[Wilko]

as I've posted many times on this subject, a shim does not alter the relationship between the strings and the frets.

If it's going to buzz without a shim, it will buzz with one if all other factors stay the same (string height, neck relief, and fret leveling)

[boobtube21]

To elaborate on Wilko's statement, you can't fix anything with a shim that you can't fix with any of the adjustments built into the guitar...except for the extreme cases where you can't get the action low enough period, no matter how low you adjust the saddles.

Obviously if you shim the neck in such a manner to get an angle of out of it, it'll change some geometry and possibly correct a problem, but again nothing you can't do with the saddles.

[alanfc]

Based on these pictures and the most desirable setups #1, #3 and # A,
I actually think the nut slots are factor in my case. They do not pass the 3rd fret tapping test. I believe they are too low. Especially after looking at some pics of pre-cut Fenders online in images like this:
http://www.guitar-parts.com/pictures...ar-Pre-Cut.jpg

I mean I can't even judge anything properly until the nut is correct. Right?
Thanks

[boobtube21]

Yep, the nut has to be right. However, that's not going to affect the fretted notes, other than intonation.

For $75 or so you should be able to take it in and have a tech do the whole thing for you. It's worth it.

[Hammerstone]

Listen to boobtube and read the Guitar handbook - I use this method fretting at the first and 17th frets and plucking the string in between to ring out. i straighten the neck (tighten the truss rod) til the string wont ring cause it is just touching the frets. (we are not done at this point) - i then get my string height about right at the saddles. the action will feel very stiff at this point. I then start loosening the truss rod in tiny increments and playing it until suddenly that buttery soft feel comes into the string action. (this should be around the 0.3 mm area anyway its better to feel it so you are not at the mercy of a measurement- live the spirit of the idea, not the letter of the rule) Then i refine my string height until it feels just right- use a radius gauge on the string heights! get creative - i like to use a 12" string radius for a 9.5" radius fretboard....
then set your intonation and you are done!