A couple of Strat set-up questions

[JAM]

I've been playing my Strat Ultra a lot lately, but would like to lower the action just a bit. Looking at the saddles they're already pretty close to the bridge plate and I believe that it might be better to adjust the action using the micro-tilt that's on this model. One concern - I've read in Dan Erlewine's guitar book that on some models a shim caused a 'hump' in the high frets after many years. Anyone experience any problems with having a shim (which is essentially what the micro-tilt does) for a long time? Here's a pic of the bridge:



The low E saddle measures 1/16 from the bottom of the saddle to the plate, and the A allen set screws are above the top which bugs me when I do any palm mutes. Does having a greater angle possibly improve the sound?

Another view:


BTW, for anyone familiar with Ultras - this is not the stock pickguard, I replaced it with a standard 3 p'up, and the pickups are silver, gold, silver (neck, mid, bridge) Lace Sensors.

Thanks!

[JAM]

Thanks fezz! I had a feeling a hump is a rather rare occurence. Of course a repairman would see the problem guitars.

[Offshore Angler]

Thanks fezz! I had a feeling a hump is a rather rare occurence...

Sorry to read that.

Don't forget you can set the action height on a modern two point with the post screws. Just make sure your trem isn't binding if you get it really low. I've seen a few that were too high. From the pics yours looks good though, so I'd do the tilt.

You know, I know this is considered heresy in some circles, but some of the ways Erlewine approaches Strat setups and repairs are questionable in my experience.

[empty71]

You know, I know this is considered heresy in some circles, but some of the ways Erlewine approaches Strat setups and repairs are questionable in my experience.

Haha Offshore Angler, you're a man after my own heart :) I always tell my guitar repair clients to read Dan's books with a pinch of salt. One man's meat is another's poison and there're definitely many ways to skin a cat.

Back to the post. Without accessing the guitar up close and personal, I would venture to say that the neck angle/pitch is slightly off. I would adjust the micro tilt by just a tad so the neck is seated parallel to the body. Once that's done, you'll find the action way too low and the saddles could be adjusted higher.

[Offshore Angler]

Haha Offshore Angler, you're a man after my own heart :) I always tell my guitar repair clients to read Dan's books with a pinch of salt. One man's meat is another's poison and there're definitely many ways to skin a cat.

Back to the post. Without accessing the guitar up close and personal, I would venture to say that the neck angle/pitch is slightly off. I would adjust the micro tilt by just a tad so the neck is seated parallel to the body. Once that's done, you'll find the action way too low and the saddles could be adjusted higher.

Agreed, I revisited the phtots, and it definately will need the neck tiltled a tad. Don't forget you'll need to re-intonate after adjusting.

[JAM]

OK, thanks guys. I only need to lower the action a small amount, but the increase in break over angle should help. Maybe that will help the intonation too. You can see the saddles are pretty far back (esp. the low E) and it just barely intonates.

[Don]

You know, I know this is considered heresy in some circles, but some of the ways Erlewine approaches Strat setups and repairs are questionable in my experience.

And, although I learned most of what I know about guitar setups and repairs from him, I agree somewhat as well.

[JAM]

Allright, I tilted the neck and re-adjusted the saddles. Seems there's more high-end and sustain. Now the A saddle allen set screws are about 1/32 below the top. Action was still a tad low, but rather than redo all the saddles just raised it at the two point post screws. Plays great. Thanks again for all the help.

[curtisstetka]

I love happy endings. Really beautiful guitar, by the way.

[pc]

Agreed, that's a beautiful guitar, Joe.

[Offshore Angler]

I always dug the ebony necks on those bad boys.

[melody]

Yup shes a looker for sure.

[JAM]

Hey guys, thanks for the comments. We just got back from shopping, and I picked up the Strat and no question it has more high-end. This has always been a very punchy guitar, but it's even better now. A couple of weeks ago I was late getting out of the house to rehearsal, so I tossed the Ultra into the bag case I have my Tele in, grabbed my amp and ran out the door. I've been playing it ever since. Damn, I've got to plug it into my Super Reverb. Not that I've played a lot of Strats, but this ax plays like a dream.

[Wilko]

Use a shim with no worries. I like my saddles very high for more angle. Makes the guitar a lot more dynamic. Works wonders on a flat top box-for obvious reasons.

I doubt seriously that the humps reported happened between the screws of that neck plate. IMHO, the hump is from the neck bending at the heel. SHim or no shim, if your neck will bend, it's going to bend there.

[cdw2000]

Hi,
Not to hijack this thread, but do any of you have any info on what the optimum bridge plate height should be (at the pivot screws) for the modern two-point tremolo?

I bought my AmDlx used, and it seemed like the plate was set very high at the pivot screws, so I lowered them. But I am wondering what Fender's spec's are.

I checked around Fender's support site but found no guidance.

Thanks, Chris

[Wilko]

Fender's spec is to set the bridge plate so it moves in both directions. I don't know the measurement they cited, but I seem to remember it being something like as high as the thickness of the plate...

I always set my strat bridges flat on the body. They transfer sound to the guitar better that way and always have a place to "seat" and tend to stay in tune a lot better.

[JAM]

Chris,

I dont know if Fender has a spec for the minimum height of the pivot screws, but if they're too low the bridge plate won't lay flat. Anything above that I would think is OK. Also, I've noticed the height needs to be the same on both sides or the knife edges dont sit correctly in the pivot points - they have the be in the same plane.

[surfreak]

I may be in the minority here, but I think that neck shims (or raising the microtilt) are one of the worst things you can do tone-wise.

I like the neck joint pocket to be perfectly tight, with maximum wood to wood contact (in the past I've actually lightly sanded the neck pocket and neck butt on some of my Strats to remove the paint layer).

With regards to the saddle angle, my preference is actually for a flatter angle, as in my experience it does not affect the tone negatively (unlike in an archtop bridge or even a tune-o-matic), and it makes for a slightly more comfortable playability.

[Offshore Angler]

I may be in the minority here, but I think that neck shims (or raising the microtilt) are one of the worst things you can do tone-wise.

I like the neck joint pocket to be perfectly tight, with maximum wood to wood contact (in the past I've actually lightly sanded the neck pocket and neck butt on some of my Strats to remove the paint layer).

With regards to the saddle angle, my preference is actually for a flatter angle, as in my experience it does not affect the tone negatively (unlike in an archtop bridge or even a tune-o-matic), and it makes for a slightly more comfortable playability.

Interesting. Why do you think that? I've been shimming them for years, and have never heard a difference pre/post shim.

[JAM]

Well, I can tell you the tone after I got the neck angle correct and the saddles higher is definitely better. I might have thought that wood to wood contact has better tone, but it's clear that's not the case. The guitar still is punchy, but where it always seemed 'warmer' was apparently just a lack of highs. It sings better in the high register too. I'm digging the shit out of this Strat. (I always did, but even more now). I dont think the shim (tilt actually in my Strat) is where the difference in tone occured, but the saddles before had very little break-over.

[surfreak]

Interesting. Why do you think that? I've been shimming them for years, and have never heard a difference pre/post shim.

Well, as I said, my statement is based on my own practical experience with a few strats I've owned.

The most noticeable instance was with a '62 reissue which came from the factory with a neck shim (that usual thin white plastic shim with notches that match the neck screw holes), and had a few noticeable dead spots around the 12th fret.

I verified that there were no loose frets or other common mechanical issues at the bridge, so I removed the shim, adjusted both the truss rod and the bridge saddles, and the dead spots disappeared (or, most likely, their resonating frequency was altered).

[matsb]

IMHO, one more thing to check for when setting up for string action is that you have the right neck relief, since that plays a big part in the overall picture. Yeah, as a matter of - again most humbly - fact, you should start with that.

Not suggesting that you didn't, JAM, just wanted to chime in...

[Offshore Angler]

Well, I can tell you the tone after I got the neck angle correct and the saddles higher is definitely better. I might have thought that wood to wood contact has better tone, but it's clear that's not the case. The guitar still is punchy, but where it always seemed 'warmer' was apparently just a lack of highs. It sings better in the high register too. I'm digging the shit out of this Strat. (I always did, but even more now). I dont think the shim (tilt actually in my Strat) is where the difference in tone occured, but the saddles before had very little break-over.

Cool. Question - did you raise the pups after you raised the saddles?

[JAM]

When I switched from 9s to 10s a while back, had to very slightly tighten the rod. It has some relief, I didnt measure it though.

OSA,

I'd been messing with pickup height for a while trying to find the sweet spot, but I did not change the height after raising the saddles. Before tilting the neck and raising the saddles, the action was 7/64 on the bass side and about 3/32 on the treble. Now it's about 5/64 or so (maybe a tad higher on the bass side). So the strings are closer, but I've had the p'ups up and down before and never achieved the same effect. The overall change is subtle, but no question it sings better and has what seems like more highs, kind of hard to describe. Almost as if there's more 'clarity' to the sound if that makes sense. With a band I'm probably the only one to feel/hear the difference, a slight turn of the treble control still has more effect. But it does play better.

[Offshore Angler]

Thats cool JAM. Still, I wonder if the raising the saddles did the trick and not removing the neck shim. I understand the two are related, but I'm assuming one had a bigger effect than the other. Who knows? I guess it just is what it is, eh?

[cdw2000]

Fender's spec is to set the bridge plate so it moves in both directions. I don't know the measurement they cited, but I seem to remember it being something like as high as the thickness of the plate...

I always set my strat bridges flat on the body. They transfer sound to the guitar better that way and always have a place to "seat" and tend to stay in tune a lot better.

Yeah, if that is Fender's spec, that sounds high to me. Like you, I would think having the plate and the pivot point closer to the body would be better for tone transfer.

[cdw2000]

Chris,

I dont know if Fender has a spec for the minimum height of the pivot screws, but if they're too low the bridge plate won't lay flat. Anything above that I would think is OK. Also, I've noticed the height needs to be the same on both sides or the knife edges dont sit correctly in the pivot points - they have the be in the same plane.

Good point on the height being the same. I thought as much and have even thought about using a guage to set the height on each side *exact*.

[Offshore Angler]

Yeah, if that is Fender's spec, that sounds high to me. Like you, I would think having the plate and the pivot point closer to the body would be better for tone transfer.

But did you ever wonder if some of that Strat magic sound is due to the springs vibrating with the floating bridge?

[Wilko]

But did you ever wonder if some of that Strat magic sound is due to the springs vibrating with the floating bridge?

I've often thought of that and have found that the springs vibrating sounds best with the bridge plate sprung flat to the body.

I've got a recording I used as a test across the hall (LPF) where you can hear the springs reverb. First two guitars a starts with springs.

http://ewilkins.com/music/5unplugged.mp3

[pc]

Interesting recording--enjoyed the difference. What are the other guitars--Lesters?

Matter 'fact, I just (a half-hour ago) cranked down the spring-claw so the bridge on my new one is flush on the body. Not much seemed to change tone wise. Perhaps a bit more sustain, but it's hard to say because there was already plenty. Can't say I hear any difference from the springs being more taut (when plugged in I mean). Definitely no magic lost, I can safely say.

Also--and I'm thinking this has to be my imagination because it makes no sense--it seems like there was a slightly slinkier/looser feel to the strings--bends were ever so slightly easier than before. Like I said, that doesn't make sense to me because with less play in the bridge, you'd think they'd be a little "tighter" feeling. Weird.

[JAM]

...

Also--and I'm thinking this has to be my imagination because it makes no sense--it seems like there was a slightly slinkier/looser feel to the strings--bends were ever so slightly easier than before. Like I said, that doesn't make sense to me because with less play in the bridge, you'd think they'd be a little "tighter" feeling. Weird.

Could it be possible that tightening the claw, and with the bridge flat to the body the action is a small amount lower? Also, if the bridge doesn't move up when you bend (and thereby causing the string to go flat), you wont have to bend the string so much to raise it's pitch.

Both my Strats have tremsetters. I bought a standard claw a few years ago thinking the sound might improve, but never installed it. I like the tuning stability with the tremsetter, but I can achieve the same by just having the bridge not float. Any opinions on this? Worth a try I guess.

[pc]

Could it be possible that tightening the claw, and with the bridge flat to the body the action is a small amount lower? Also, if the bridge doesn't move up when you bend (and thereby causing the string to go flat), you wont have to bend the string so much to raise it's pitch.

Hmm... I didn't think of it that way. Could be.

Both my Strats have tremsetters. I bought a standard claw a few years ago thinking the sound might improve. I like the tuning stability, but I can achieve the same by just having the bridge not float. Any opinions on this? Worth a try I guess.

When I primarily gigged Strats I had trem-setters in two, but eventually took it out of the latter one. I too found more tuning stability in having the bridge not float, and it was then that I'd been turned onto the theory of "bridge touching body = more sustain." I tried it and became a believer, thereby not needing the trem-setter anymore.

[Wilko]

I've been resting the bridge plate flat since the first time I went out of tune just by palming the bridge. Too much work trying to lighten my touch. It's rock and roll. There's not much room for a light touch.

Flat on the body stays in tune and gets the best sound. Sharper attack. Less note wah/sag on attack.

[Wilko]

This from Fender:

First, remove the tremolo back cover. Check your tuning. Let’s start with a vintage style tremolo bridge. Here’s a great tip to enhance the performance of this bridge: Using your tremolo arm, pull the bridge back flush with the body. Loosen all six screws located at the front edge of the bridge plate. Raise them so that all of the screws measure approximately 1/16" (1.6 mm) above the top of the bridge plate. Finally, tighten the two outside screws back down until they are flush with the top of the bridge plate. The bridge will now pivot on the outside screws, leaving the four inside screws in place for bridge stability. For a two-pivot bridge like the American Standard bridge use your tremolo arm to pull the bridge back flush with the body and adjust the two pivot screws to the point where the tremolo plate sits entirely flush at the body (not lifted at the front or back of the plate).

Allowing the bridge to float freely (no tension on the tremolo arm) using the claw screws in the tremolo cavity, adjust the bridge to your desired angle (Fender spec. is 1/8" (3.2 mm) gap at rear of bridge). You will need to retune periodically to get the right balance between the strings and the springs. If you prefer a flush bridge to body, adjust spring tension to equal string tension, while the bridge rests on body (you may want to put an extra 1/2 turn to each claw screw to ensure that the bridge remains flush to the body during string bends). Caution: Do not over-tighten the springs as it can put unnecessary tension on the arm during tremolo use. Finally, you may wish to apply a small dab of Chapstick® or Vaseline® at the pivot contact points of the bridge for a very smooth operation.

[pc]

Loosen all six screws located at the front edge of the bridge plate. Raise them so that all of the screws measure approximately 1/16" (1.6 mm) above the top of the bridge plate. Finally, tighten the two outside screws back down until they are flush with the top of the bridge plate. The bridge will now pivot on the outside screws, leaving the four inside screws in place for bridge stability.

I'm gonna try that this evening. Cool- Thanks.

[cdw2000]

... if the bridge doesn't move up when you bend (and thereby causing the string to go flat), you wont have to bend the string so much to raise it's pitch.

This is exactly what happens on a floating bridge. As you bend the string, the increased tension is pulling the bridge up slightly which works against you. So you have to bend more to get up to the pitch you are striving for.