Vocal (or lack of)

[TonsofBlues]

OK, so we've moved...

Here's my problem.. once again, it sounds great in the headphones and such, but on play back. It's just sounds off. I don't mix well. Over trial and error (and error, and error) I've found to leave space for the vocals, both in the EQ and in the pan, which helped tons. But it still's flat. I know I'm not the best vocalist, but there are some I know I can do. And it sounds good in the headphone, but not in the mix. Too much reverb, not enough... who knows. No presence.

Oh, PS- Dynamic mics again.

[Gravity Jim]

Let's start , as always, with questions.

1. Are you using reverb? Are you using a lot? Does the reverb unit you're using allow you to change the length of the decay?

2. Are you using any kind of compressor?

3. What mic are you using to record the vocal? What pre-amp?

4. When you say it sounds "flat" and lacking in presence, are you saying that the vocal gets lost when you bring the fader down and sounds kind of harsh and in-your-face when you bring the fader up? Or are you describing something else?

My first guess is that you want a little compression, but I'll wait and see what you guys say.

[clayville]

Umm... wait a minute... I may be a dumbass, but how come my first questions are What kind of monitors and what's feeding them (and is there any inadvertant e.q. in the chain... I've made that mistake a time or two)? and What kind of headphones are you using?

I'm really looking forward to what GJ has to say about processing and mixing vocals (not that I've got any ) but it seems to me, a little, that you've got it half right already... and perhaps neither sound reference ('phones, monitors) is particularly flat or 'true'.

Just saying...

[Gravity Jim]

In my experience, clayville, it's probably not the lack of a flat or "true" monitor. First of all, there's no such thing (and even if there was, the room would kill it anyway). Second, we all listen to music on really cruddy systems a lot of the time, and while a lot of highs and lows and detail might get lost, you can always hear the vocal.

I'm guessing that the vocal sounds great in the phones because it always sounds great in the phones for the singer (as TonsofBlues indicates he is). You're hearing your own voice up close and personal mixed with the lower-pitched and highly-compressed version of your voice that comes through the bones in your head... a natural "double," sort of. It sounds dynamite. Then you take off the phones, listen to the playback, and now it sounds kind of harsh and one-dimensional (especially if you're recording your voice with the kind of mic you'd use for live PA).

I record my own voice all the time, and even with really nice mics and stuff, you have to do some things - mostly compression and EQ - to bring back the kind of "presence" (for want of a better term at 10:30) you heard in your phones. I'm just asking to make sure that the problem isn't a huge reverb wash or a really cruddy mic.

[seagate]

Kinda hard to make a call without a sample...

So, if you want, upload the individual tracks (dry: ie no effects applied) for us, I will have go at it, Jim might too if he has the time time...

Can provide my iDisk for the purpose...

We can keep it private if you need to...

[TonsofBlues]

Here's the set up we use now...

I use a Samson Q4 dynamic straight into the mBox, which inturn feeds Garage band. The comp and EQ are all in garage band (which has some great ones). I use top of the line Sony headphones.

I record my voice everyday with radio and audio production (commercials). So I realize that one of the most important steps is the mic and then the eq and comp.

When we do use reverb, it's very low, but we do use it. GJ, your right... when I turn down the vocal, is distant and when I turn it up it becomes to much. Stands out way to much. I'm trying to figure out what I can do to make it "mesh" with the rest of the song. I find people just listen to it rather than sing along. The only audio cuts I have are of copywritten material, so I better not up load those. I've been reading about the "magic freqs" for EQing vocal. Could that help, hurt? What about limiting? So many questions...

[Gravity Jim]

Yep... when people say the vocal sounds "flat" or is lacking presence, that's usually what they mean.

That Q4 is okay. As you know from doing VO, it's not an RE-27 or an SM7, and it's for sure not a large diaphragm condenser. A good step forward in the future would be to use a better vocal mic... something like a Shure KSM27 or KSM 32, an AT 4033 or other LDC.

But that won't fix it alone, and there are things you can try now with compression and EQ. These are just some starting points, not the be-all, end-all settings (there is no such thing).

Place a software EQ in the channel ahead of a compressor.

On the EQ, start by cutting to de-mud the vocal... set an EQ point somewhere between 250 and 300, with a Q of 2, and cut 2db or so. Not enough? Tighten the Q (start at 5 an go all the way to 10 as you increase the notch) and cut as much as 5db. If your software allows it, slide the center point of the notch around between 250 and 300 until you feel you've found a sweet spot.

Then set your compressor. As starting points, try a fast attack (say, 5ms) and a relatively fast release (around 50ms) and a medium ratio... 2.5 to start. Now, start decreasing the threshold and listening to the results. The lower the threshold, the more of the signal will be affected.

It should be starting to sound more "alive" now. At this point, experiment a little. Increase the compression ratio and it's output if you want a bit more "punch." Try boosting the EQ around 4K for sparkle and clarity. (Not too much! It's easy to fool your ear with too much high end... that's why we all ended up using WAY too much of that damned BBE Sonic Maximizer.)

You should be finding now that you can sit the vocal lower in the mix and still hear it nice and clear.

Here's a tip for cleaning up a mix, too... as a starting point for EQ, set your EQ as a low cut on every channel but the bass guitar and kick drum, and dump everything below 80hz. Instant clarity! Add a bit back in on selected tracks (maybe a guitar or a keyboard thing) if feel the track is losing energy.

[TonsofBlues]

Thanks Jim... You are a man of many talents.. nice web page btw. I agree that a nice LDC mic is next on the list of things to get. The Samson is great for live sound.

How can I repay you.

I can't wait to try some stuff when I get home... I find I try to much at once. I'll get playing with the EQ, and get excited about the reverb and run to try it. I guess I need to slow down the process. Once I found something that fits for my voice, I'll make sure to save all of it for presets. Do you ever double vocals? Not harmonies, but the same vocal line? Maybe to add more "coverage"?

[Gravity Jim]

I don't double lead vocals very often... sometimes a chorus in a corporate show tune. It's something I've been meaning to try more of, but so often in my line of work, time constraints mean, "Yep, that sounds pretty good... movin' on!" I do, however triple background vocals routinely. Even a simple two-part harmony sounds huge and smooth when you triple it. As an engineer I used to work with said one day, "The double is nice, but the triple is where the magic happens!"

Fooling with everything at once is the curse of having all these cool toys to play with. Be scientific... change one thing at a time, and then listen to what happened. Listen hard. "Good mixing is good listening made permanent."

[TonsofBlues]

"Good mixing is good listening made permanent."

I like it...

Maybe it's like my GF always says, "you never listen!" Maybe she was talking about my mixing! I wish...

[guitars247]

You forgot one stage in the chain TB:

The mics are running through a 16 channel Samick board, EQ flattened.

tonsofblues uses the Q4, I have a Shure 14A (cheaper version of the 58).

I also have a Behringer B-1 Large diaphragm condenser, but the Samick doesn't have phantom power. I am either going to run it directly into the mBox (which does have phantom power) or use a PP box.

The Q4 and the 14A are what we have been using to record guitars and bass with. Lately, we have been using a dual approach on the guitars of a direct out (from the preamp out on our Hot Rod Deluxe and Deville) and mic'ing the cabinet.

Back a few years back in another studio I had set up at my house, I used the B-1 to good results. I am looking at adding a 906 or something along those lines for the guitars and a KSM44 or something along those lines for the vocals (which if I get the bid on this video production project, will be soon).

But tonsofblues is right, everything sounds thin. Even acoustic guitars just sound like the sound is being repressed from fully being heard in the mix. Also, and I might be using the wrong terminology on this one, but this is the best way I can describe it) it seems like there is always a lot of headroom on the track that isn't being used, like there is air in the mix that shouldnt be there. It almost sounds like a "hissing" or "line noise" sound.....would a power conditioner help? It just sounds like that is further pushing everything back in the mix and keep it from being full and lush sounding.

Oh - and I just wanted to thank everyone for their outstanding assistance with all of this for us. Looks like I am starting a reference notebook on mixing and recording from these threads!

[clayville]

Old thread but:
Earlier this week I took a stab at mixing vocals for the first time for a Shortboy jam zone track across the hall -- I had a good clean mixdown of the backing, and his original dry vocal tracks. After much trial and error... and sniffing around for comprehensible advice elsewhere, I ended up with this (which has a bit too much reverb and a bit of ballsy boominess in the backing)

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/song...songID=4630437

That's the 128K bit rate Soundclick version.

I'm not unhappy with how it turned out but after it was all done, I thought to check in here.

So just to see, I stripped out a bunch of whacko Rube Goldberg stuff I'd done and followed GJ's advice above. Still has too much reverb but sounds more traditional, and got there a whole lot more easily. Here's the first verse with the GJ principals applied, same bit rate:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/song...songID=4645403

I think the advice to not change 2 or 3 things at once is crucial if you're not sure what you're doing. That's how I end up over-processing and then trying to compensate with something else all the time. Thanks for the tips, GJ!

[Gravity Jim]

Nce work, Clay.

You see what I mean about how the vocal sits lower in the mix without losing its hold on center stage.

[clayville]

I do now!