Parallel 6ths (and 3rds)

[Jesse S.]

Let me see if I can ask this more concisely than on the other forum...

Context: I'm working on the exercises in lessons 16 and 17 of "Blues You Can Use" - playing 6ths and 3rds over the fretboard over I-IV-V chords.

The part that I'm missing: how can you tell when to play a major 6th and when to play a minor 6th? I more-or-less know when it sounds good and when it doesn't, but my fingers don't know where to go in an on-the-fly situation.

Is there a shortcut to knowing which intervals to play, or is there no way around learning all of the notes on the fretboard and learning exactly which notes are in which key?

It also kind of throws me that if you are playing 6ths in the key of A (A7-D7-E7), you play a G natural over the A7 (because of the dominant 7th), but it changes to G# over the E7 (because of the 3rd). So do you match the interval to the chord or to the key?

Thanks! Hopefully I was able to explain my confusion (that is always the trick!).

[mgade]

I don't know those excersises, and more knowledgable people will tell you the truth. In my book, however, you can follow the scale OR the chords OR both. It really depends. If you have any recording device, try record the progression a large number of times and then explicitly try it out. It all MUST work so try it. It'll sound crappy at first but it will "fit". In an hour it will sound good. In two hours you will be changing approach on the fly.

If it works I'll try too ;-)

[Tele-Bob]

Personally, I don't look at it as notes and their names. I look at it in terms of intervals. I think in terms of major, minor, dominant, diminished and augmented.

Since a typical blues progression repeats itself endlessly it becomes very easy to see where the scale changes.

Throw away the book for a moment and try this in A:

E-----------------5------------7-----8------------------------
B-----------------5-----6-----7-----8-------------------------
G-----------4----5-----6-----7-----8---------------------------
D-----------4----5-----6-----7--------------------------------
A-----------4----5-----6-----7-------------------------------
E----------------5------------7-----8------------------------

These are notes you can play over the 3 chords in your A blues progression. I've laid them out as a scale. Just leave the ones out that don't apply for any given chord during the progression.

Try thinking in terms of chord type. If the chord you're playing over is a dominant 7, then just play the appropriate notes from the scale for that chord. You will see where your fingers (1 thru 4) lay out in 1,2,4 patterns, 1,3,4 patterns and 1,3 patterns.

I have found it helpful to just take scales for the 3 chords and play them as one scale so I become familiar with all the notes I'll be using first. Then I select the right notes for the right chords as the progression moves forward.

Blues can start to sound very much like jazz if you stick too close to the formula. That's a good thing. But very often, it just ain't blues. Hope this helps.

[matsb]

A good way of knowing which notes go into the 3 or 6 doublestops is to learn the chords in (all) the different positions. After all, those tones are part of those chords. Pay most attention to the 3 and the 7 in the chords - they are the ones that change.

A7:
E-----------3---------------------9---------------------
B---2------2----------5----------8--------10-----------
G---0------2----------6----------9--------12--------
D---2-----------------5--------------------11-------
A-----------------------------------------------
E-----------------------------------------------

D7:
E----2------------8----------------------------------
B----1-----3-----7--------7----------10---------
G---2------5----7--------5-----------11-----------
D----------4-------------7----------10-------------
A----------------------------------------------------
E-----------------------------------------------------

E7:
E-----------4---------------------10--------------------------------
B---0------3----------5----------9-------9---------------------------
G---1------4----------7----------9------7-------------------------
D---0-----------------4------------------9-----------------------
A-------------------------------------------------------------
E--------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually you will be able to recognize the chords when you play melodic stuff and melodic ideas will present themselves when you play chords. :)

And, when you practice the changes, try find the chords closest. E.g.

E----9-----------8------------------------------------------
B----8-----------7--------------------------------------------
G----9----------7---------------------------------------
goes to

[Jesse S.]

Thanks, this is really good information. Tele-Bob, you offer a lot of note choices for blues, I guess the trick really is knowing when it fits. Like you said, getting away from the minor pent is nice, but too far and it's not really blues anymore, is it?

When I "noodle" I guess I mostly play in the basic 1st pattern of the minor pent, but I frequently add the major 3rd, the 6th, and the 9th as well. Not sure what that scale would be called, but it sounds a bit more T-Bone Walker to me, which is a sound I really like.

Back to the topic of 6ths, let me throw this out as well: I was watching Duke Robillard's Freddie King Signature Licks DVD yesterday. In the part of "Hide Away" with the descending 6ths, I would have expected the lowermost 6th to contain the E and the G#, since it's in the key of E, over an E major chord. But he goes to an E and G natural (a minor 6th). To me, this seems to clash with the chord, especially considering the song's melody comes from the major scale not the minor pentatonic.

Was this a mistake by Freddie King? Or I guess more likely, an intentional flattening of the 3rd for a bluesy twist in that part?

There's so damn much to learn!!!

[Tele-Bob]

The flat 3 can be used in passing against the major chord especially if you bend it up a quarter tone. That's blues man!

That scale I posted above really isn't a scale. But if you play it enough as a scale, you will quickly become familiar with the notes you can use over your 3 chords. Familiarity is a big part of playing comfortably. Try it a few times. It will all start to make perfect sense.

[JAM]

Jesse S.

You really should take time and learn the basic pentatonic in all 5 positions. Playing out of the same 'block' can get real limiting. This link was posted in another thread but it gives some good basic info:

http://www.guitarstuff.com/lessons/minpent/minpent.html

This describes the scale as a minor pentatonic in G minor but it's also Bflat major pentatonic - simply a major scale omitting the 4th and 7th tones. Adding Dflat to these will give you the G blues scale.

[Offshore Angler]

As a GENERAL rule in major key, play majors on the first, fourth, and fifth intervals of the tonic, and minors on the 2nd, 3rd, and 6th. The 7th is a wildcard. The flat 7 will work in blues most of the time, and the natural will then become a leading tone to the root. But use what works. "Style" is essentially how you break the rules.

[Jesse S.]

JAM, I do know all five patterns of the pentatonic (and blues) scales, and I understand how the major and minor pentatonics relate to each other. I practice these scales across the entire fretboard almost every day in various permutations.

Unfortunately, at the recent CNY Jam, I discovered that my comfort zone doesn't seem to allow me to stray out of the first pattern in a live improv situation. That's definitely something I need to work on. Maybe it's just a question of experience?

[Offshore Angler]

Jesse, don't get down on yourself. In some situations the first pattern is all you need. At jams frequently you play lots of slow blues, and the way our minds work, you expect to hear what you were playing. Just practice this one little exercise:

Playing the first position, when your third finger hits the G string, slide it up two frets and smoothly transition to the second box. Then figure out a way to the third, etc, and you'll be working from your comfort zone and instead of thinking in different boxes, you'll merely be adding to the first. After a few short weeks of this, the minor pent will become an entire fretboard of friendly, trustworthy notes, and you'll be all over them. In other words, I try not to think of separate positions, but that each one is an extension of the previous one - if that makes sense.

[JAM]

..
Unfortunately, at the recent CNY Jam, I discovered that my comfort zone doesn't seem to allow me to stray out of the first pattern in a live improv situation. That's definitely something I need to work on. Maybe it's just a question of experience?

Hey, who ever said playing this instrument was going to be easy!

[JAM]

Just for fun, and after thinking of Jimmy Wyble (see the Bakersfield Sound thread). Try playing an A minor pentatonic against a Bflat maj7 #11 chord!

[Tele-Bob]

Hey, go for broke and just play A locrian JAM!

[JAM]

Hey, go for broke and just play A locrian JAM!

Sh*t man, you expect me to remember modes! But it's really more of a Lydian thing (the #11 on the major).

[Tele-Bob]

Sh*t man, you expect me to remember modes! But it's really more of a Lydian thing (the #11 on the major).

Admittedly, I didn't read the other thread but I figured that playing A locrian over Bbmaj7 is essentially the same as playing Bb ionian. Guess I better go to Bakersfield now.

[JAM]

In the Bakersfield thread a comment was made regarding Bob Wills influence on the 'Bakersfield Sound'. I had the picture that I posted there since it had Jimmy Wyble in it. So that got me thinking of Jimmy. He was my teacher way back in mid 70's. You'd hear Jimmy play something and ask "what the heck are you playing?" and some answer like my above post could be the reply "It's just A minor pent against a Bflat maj #11" Sitting next to someone of this caliber is real humbling, and Jimmy's a real great guy - VERY humble.

[Tele-Bob]

I understand what you're saying JAM. It's not only about having the right notes, but the right interpretation.