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Thread: Standards

  1. #1
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    Standards

    When y'all record with your bands, who has the final say on when something is "good enough?"

    I'm trying to fiinish our band's demo and I'm fairly frustrated because the standards of the others (except the drummer) seem to be fairly low. They ask me "Why are you dumping that take, it's fine" and I say "It's NOT fine, I clammed three times and I'm not putting that out in the world." It's like they're unable to listen critically.

    Do most musicians (on this level) really liisten to something and say "doesn't need to be any better"? For me, and I know it's a non-attainabloe goal but seriously, I want a really clean, precise sound.

    As it is, I'm going to have to use auto-tune on a number of vocals becauuse after 20 takes, it is just clear that the other guy can't do this one line in a song without flatting a note...sometimes a half-step, sometimes a step. He's going for a blue-note effect and that's fine, but he has to hit the right note, however briefly.

    Recorded more yesterday, I think I'm now at the point that any further recording will be done by me, as I'm a better *studio* musician than the two guys I've been trying to record.

    Not saying I'm a better musician, but I have a lot more experience simply by virtue of the fact that I've had the tools to do it for the past four years. I have honed my skills at playing in a way that serves the song and even beyond that, I know what I want to hear on the recording (we agreed I'm producing it) and I'm not getting it from the other guys, so I'm just going to do it myself, because the damned demo needs finishing and I'm not wasting another weekend fighting with them about playing legato instead of staccato and so forth.

    The bass player hasn't been playing the stuff long enough to know it well enough to play it without clamming and I have. I can play the bass part.

    I probably sound like a control-freaking prick, and to a degree I AM, but dammit, our names are gonna be on this thing and I'm not going to sacrifice quality in the name of musical egalitarianism.

    Am I a bad person?

  2. #2
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    Hey, bud!

    I understand your desire for near-perfection on the demo, but after a while demo production quality becomes a matter of ROI. In other words, how much better will it sound - and how many more gigs will it generate - if you continue to tweek it versus declaring it "done" and ready for release? Is the continued work, and the resulting delay in release, going to make a material difference in how it's perceived?

    It's all about striking a balance between product quality and time-to-market.

    My $.02. Good luck!
    Free Agent Harp Mercenary

  3. #3
    Forum Member Tele-Bob's Avatar
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    I recently read a quote about recording that said something like this: "Recordings are never finished, they're abandoned."

    I too have sought perfection in the studio only to find that a perfect take was often perfectly boring. I tried so hard to hit everything right that I had lost all the feel and expression which was present in some previous takes even though they may have had a slight flaw or two. If you listened to the demo thebluesbarn hosted for me, it's full of small flaws but I feel the the energy is there in the performance. Not to mention that I had to do everything in 2 or 3 takes. We were on a budget and it had to get done. I have no problem putting that recording out there. The people who can actually hear and comment on the flaws are not the ones who will be attending the gigs anyway so it only becomes expensive to try and impress them. It's all about the vibe man!
    If you're bored, you're not groovin'.

  4. #4
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    Originally posted by Tele-Bob
    I recently read a quote about recording that said something like this: "Recordings are never finished, they're abandoned."

    I too have sought perfection in the studio only to find that a perfect take was often perfectly boring. I tried so hard to hit everything right that I had lost all the feel and expression which was present in some previous takes even though they may have had a slight flaw or two. If you listened to the demo thebluesbarn hosted for me, it's full of small flaws but I feel the the energy is there in the performance. Not to mention that I had to do everything in 2 or 3 takes. We were on a budget and it had to get done. I have no problem putting that recording out there. The people who can actually hear and comment on the flaws are not the ones who will be attending the gigs anyway so it only becomes expensive to try and impress them. It's all about the vibe man!
    Well, the money's not an issue since I got my iBook and I can record everything but the drums myself.

    Bob, one of the way I attain something near my goal is to sit down wth the original demo (which is usually a one-man-band effort by me with computer-written drum tracks) and run the backing track in a loop and try different solo things. Once I have a solo, however sloppily played at first, I play it and play it until I have it nailed. Once nailed, I can put both passion and precision into it. I've asked the other guy to try to do that (he doesn't) and his solos start to all sound the same because he keeps puling the same stuff out of his bag of tricks over and over.

    the other thing that was funny was last weekend, he had this solo he did, and he did a really cool little triplet thing that he really nailed on one take, and then he did better on the stuff preceding on a different take. Now the odd thing is that he protested when I said "we'll take part "A" from that take and part "B" form the other take, put them together and you've got a good solo."

    But when he heard the rough on Sunday afternoon he asked me "did you put the two parts together? I can't hear where you did it"

    He was actually surprised that we did that.

    But on "Old Weakness," I'm going to have to take little clams, put them on separate tracks, auto-tune them and put them back. I hate it because auto-tune is like giving up, but I gotta get this done.

    I'll be asking selected ears here to listen to the stuff (via email). you guys want to volunteer?

  5. #5
    Forum Member Annie D.'s Avatar
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    Not me.

    "Abandoned." Great line, Tele-Bob!

  6. #6
    Forum Member Tele-Bob's Avatar
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    Annie I think I read that here on this very forum. Great quote. Wish I could take credit for it.
    If you're bored, you're not groovin'.

  7. #7
    Forum Member MIKEH's Avatar
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    I think that the adherance to standards is dependant upon what you intend to do with the final result. There are several scenarios:

    1. You are a recording artist with a record deal.
    2. You are trying to become a recording artist with a record deal.
    3. You are a songwriter trying to sell your songs.
    4. You are a local band trying to get gigs.
    5. You record for your own amusement or enjoyment.
    6. You use recordings of rehearsals to improve the delivery or arrangement of the material

    If I had a record deal and the intention was to sell records, I would be inclined to having as perfect a product as possible. I would, of course, want the work to be a representation of my music that I would be proud of, but more than that, I wouldn't want people to spend hard earned money on an inferior effort.
    If I were in the process of trying to get a record deal, I would most likely have similar high production values.

    A songwriter trying to sell songs is concerned that the lyrical content of the song comes through. The production values don't have to be as high. The instruments don't even have to be played by actual musicians, as long as the song is presented in a way that shows it's potential as commercial material.

    If you are using the demo to try to book gigs, my philosophy is that a live recording is a much better represenation of what you can actually bring to the venue. If the mix is decent, and there are no glaring mistakes, a live recording, or even a video of the band should serve to acquaint a booker with the band's material and overall capabilities.

    For the last two scenarios, production values don't have to be high, and the mistakes you make will serve as learning tools.

    For the record (no pun intended), I've never been 100% happy with anything I've ever recorded. But, at some point, you have to leave well enough alone.
    Last edited by MIKEH; 03-09-2004 at 09:38 AM.
    Knowledge is the small part of ignorance that we arrange and classify. -- Ambrose Bierce

  8. #8
    Forum Member Scott Miller's Avatar
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    I agree that the best demos are live demos. Mistakes don't matter, and you get an audience whooping and hollering. Heck, you could just leave the demo as it is, add a few whoops and hollers, and pretend it's live.

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by Scott Miller
    I agree that the best demos are live demos. Mistakes don't matter, and you get an audience whooping and hollering. Heck, you could just leave the demo as it is, add a few whoops and hollers, and pretend it's live.
    The thought has crossed my mind. Add a touch of reverb to the whole proceeding, mix in some club noise, a little extra delay on the vocals, bam! live album!

    I AM a bad person, ain't I?

  10. #10
    Forum Member Annie D.'s Avatar
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    "Live" there's a certain force that enters our system. We become someone else and can go into that interactive/energy-exchange "posession" where we pull out all the stoppers and transcend our usual mediocrity, and there's no takin' it back or "overzees".

    They always had to carry me kicking and begging out the back door on studio stuff. Polish, polish, polish! Tweak. amend. layer tracks. try that thing again. More harmonies! "Oh! And how 'bout a balalaika on that tune?" Know what I mean?

  11. #11
    Forum Member CA Bobcat's Avatar
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    I have been told by club owners that they much prefer "live" demos vs studio. The idea being that live gives them a realistic example of the music. In other words they don't want to hire based on a "perfect" recording.
    If you can't laugh at yourself, who can?

  12. #12
    fezz parka
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    Originally posted by pbradt
    Now the odd thing is that he protested when I said "we'll take part "A" from that take and part "B" form the other take, put them together and you've got a good solo."

    But when he heard the rough on Sunday afternoon he asked me "did you put the two parts together? I can't hear where you did it"

    He was actually surprised that we did that.
    Comping together a bunch of takes? I do that all the time. I'll record about five passes and pull from each for "the" take.

    I'd love to hear the final mixes, Pete. Send 'em to my work email. :yay

  13. #13
    Forum Member music-n-motorcycle's Avatar
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    Let the producer have the final say. If it is a band effort then the band should appoint a member capable doing the job to be producer.

    If this is not feasable, then there are too many egos.
    4:20, my favorite time of day.

  14. #14
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    M&M: I'm the producer. I'm also the recordist, engineer, mixing engineer and mastering engineer. Guitarist, bassist and backing vocalist.

    Fezz: do you mind listening and critiqeing? I'm getting there but you know how it is, you need fresh ears and mine ain't any more.

  15. #15
    fezz parka
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    Originally posted by pbradt
    Fezz: do you mind listening and critiqeing? I'm getting there but you know how it is, you need fresh ears and mine ain't any more.
    I'd be happy to, Pete!

  16. #16
    Forum Member music-n-motorcycle's Avatar
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    Hey Pete, you get the final say.
    4:20, my favorite time of day.

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