Holy modals questin again!

[shunka]

FORTY PLUS YEARS OF PLAYING EXPERIENCE AND several years of formal lessons and I still don't quite get it. It seems to me that if you are in "C" and play the notes of a "C" scale from "D " to "D" it's still a "C" scale. If you play efgabcde, or fgabcdef, or gabcdefg, etc. it's still a "C" scale. Perhaps it will make you think a little to play it in a less familiar position?
Currently, if I'm soloing in "C" I'l use a "C" scale,an "A"minor/blues, a "C"minor or "Bb" depending on the sound or color that I want. Sometimes with a few altered notes. I guess this is modal but not what I have been taught.
Help!!!

[Jim Collins]

Part of the problem with understanding modes is the way in which modes are explained. They always explain that a mode is built on the nth note of the scale, etc., so that D Dorian is DEFGABC. That's fine as far as how they came into being, but it has little to do with how they are used. The important part, and the part that is frequently missed, is that the step pattern of the notes has to be translated into the key of interest. Playing D Dorian while you are in C is not interesting, since you are still using the same notes. Now, playing C Dorian while you are in the key of C is much more interesting. C Dorian has the same notes as Bb -- C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb. Note how this differs from C minor (or C Aeolian), which is C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb. This is where the modal variety comes in -- translating the step pattern of the mode into the key of interest.

[Old Tele man]

agreed! mode = key & pattern

[shunka]

Thanks,
This starts to make a little sense.
So, if I play C Dorian, I am essentially superimposing a Bb scale over a C CHORD? That's what gives it a "bluesy" sound, because of the Bb and the Eb in the scale?

[Sven]

Originally posted by Jim Collins
......a mode is built on the nth note of the scale, etc., so that D Dorian is DEFGABC. That's fine as far as how they came into being, but it has little to do with how they are used.

It has everything to do with how and why the modes were used. Modality is a type of melodic (and later harmonic) system that was used before the idea of keys and a variety of different key signatures were used. The choice of mode depended on which scale pattern was needed and the vocal range of an individual plainchant. Different modes were thought to have certain psycological effects on the listeners, at a time when church and music were one and the same. That is why they are known as the "church modes". Using a Dorian scale in a blues tune is not nearly the same thing as using an actual mode.

[Scott Miller]

"Perhaps it will make you think a little to play it in a less familiar position?"

That's one way modes are used. Next time you're playing a blues in C, play a Bbmaj7 arpeggio over the C, or a Gmin arpeggio. You get all the same scale notes, but way different moods.

[shunka]

I think I do a lot of this "by ear" without really thinking about the how and why. I do however sometimes hear soloes which are somewhat "outside" and I suspect this might be some example of what we are talking about.
I'll hear something and think,"Wow! Where did that line come from."