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Thread: J-Station - Sample Rate Question

  1. #1
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    J-Station - Sample Rate Question

    I'm trying to get rolling with Cubase, and intend to use my J-Station with it in S/PDIF mode.

    The J-Station's sample rate is 44.1 and I'd prefer to record in 48. Does this create a problem, or is the sample rate in an outboard modeler irrelevant? I suspect the latter, but I thought I'd ask.

    Thanks for any help!
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  2. #2
    fezz parka
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    What interface/soundcard are you using?

  3. #3
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    Originally posted by fezz parka
    What interface/soundcard are you using?
    Tom Oberheim's personal Titanic, the SeaSound.

    The J-Station seems to just about bypass the whole rack unit and goes directly into the S/PDIF input on card itself. How much of the rackmount circuitry is bypassed, I'm unsure.

    My goal is to lay down guitar/bass tracks with the SeaSound and do everything else at a higher sample rate. I'm not positive, but I think Cubase adjusts for this. I can't find any reference to this in any of my extensive and largely worthless collection of Cubase handbooks and documentation.
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  4. #4
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    Oh, and while I'm at it, does anyone know how to do that thing where you set the J-Station to have a uniform gain in the digital output? The differential in output between different amp and cab models is driving me crazy.
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  5. #5
    fezz parka
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    I never use the digital out, but I think the adjustment is on the J-Edit toolbar. I think Cubase will record the signal at whatever sample rate you choose in the program, regardless of what the J-Station is sending...

    FWIW, I hear more of a difference between 16 bit vs. 24 bit than I do with 44.1 vs. 48 vs. 96kHz etc. Then again, I like noise and hiss and buzzing single coils. Seems more "real" to me that way. :tw59

  6. #6
    Gravity Jim
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    Fezz is right..... You will hear more difference between 16 bit and 24 bit, and virtually no difference between 44.1 and 48. 48K was invented as a consumer sampling rate designed to keep home DAT recordists from making direct S/PDIF copies of 44.1K CDs. It doesn't really sound any better. However, as you may have noticed in that statement...

    Digital-to-digital transfers of any kind require that source and target bespeaking exactly the same language. You cannot record a 44.1 signal "digitally" in a program that is looking for a 48K signal. If you do, Cubase will want for 48,000 signals each second, but it will get only 44,100. The lack of synch may result in pops and clicks, but the biggest problem will be unavoidable... when you play the recording back, Cubase will play 48,000 samples each second, which will be about 10% more samples than you actually sent when recording... so the recording will play back at the wrong speed and the wrong pitch, just like an analog record that has been speeded up.

    I know this is true because I (and everyone else who records digitally) did it by accident a hundred times in the early days of taking my studio digital. I learned to hate video editors who INSISTED on sending me DATS reccorded at 48K, which required me to reset not just my console and my DAT machine but EVERY SINGLE DEVICE in the digital chain... if even one was left expecting 44.1, the resulting recording would play back "low and slow."

  7. #7
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    Set it to 48Khz in your sound card settings and Cubase will follow along........... it's smart
    Then when your done with your project just export it at 44.100

    Last edited by Bob Onit; 11-05-2003 at 07:12 PM.

  8. #8
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    This stuff is so much fun. But like Fezz, I just cable stereo out to my soundcard in. I don't do the digital transfer myself.

    I was going to, honest, but I did not want to spend the money for an SPDI/IF interface, and then when I did have the money, I just forgot about it.

    I suppose I should think about it again, though.
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  9. #9
    Gravity Jim
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    Cubase may be smart, but....

    Your software will record an incoming ANALOG signal at whatever you have set your soundcard to... but it can't record an incompatiable DIGITAL signal.

    So Cubase may record automatically at whatever sample rate you set your soundcard to... BUT if you set the soundcard to 48 and feed it a 44.1 digital signal, you will get the results I described. You simply cannot play or record a 44.1K digital signal in a 48K environment (well, you can, but it will play back at the wrong speed and pitch).

    Also, you will be feeding your soundcard an S/PDIF signal from an external device... so even if your sample rate does match, you will be clocking your soundcard to the internal clock in your J-Station, introducing more jitter and smear than you probably would have gotten if you have just used the analog outs on the J-Station.

    An this is why hardly anyone really records digital signals... because transfering digital signals from device to device is a can of technical worms. For most home recordists, makein music through the internal soundcard on their PCs, you will NEVER hear the difference between the analog signal and the digital signal from yoru J-Station,

  10. #10
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    Well, it looks like I have to do some more experimenting.

    The advantages of recording at higher sample rates was discussed at some length on r.a.p and it made a certain degree of sense, but if it produces problems I suppose I'll have to blow it off.

    Using the S/PDIF outs on the J-Station has particular advantages specific to the SeaSound (aside from avoiding multiple conversions), so if I can figure out how to clock it reasonably with only a few reparable pops & clicks, I still want to use it.

    If worse comes to worse, I'll just dump the J-Station and get a modeler with word clock capability (POD Pro, for example), which should cure any problems of the sort mentioned.

    Thanks for the input!
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  11. #11
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    Originally posted by photoweborama
    This stuff is so much fun.
    Yeah, about like root canal.
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  12. #12
    fezz parka
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    Re: Cubase may be smart, but....

    Originally posted by Gravity Jim

    And this is why hardly anyone really records digital signals... because transferring digital signals from device to device is a can of technical worms.
    Jim has it right. For serious stuff I'll borrow a tube preamp, but the rest of the time I use the analog outs through the mixer into the interface. The J-Station is not the best source for your clock anyway.

    The music editors that I work with always want AIFF's @ 48kHz. They tell me something about film being 24fps blahblahblah...When I tell 'em the video that they are cutting to is 29.97 NDF I get blank stares. Now I just give 'em what they want.

  13. #13
    Gravity Jim
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    Bongo, you can see the anwser in Bob's screen shot.

    On the left, see the buttons for "Clock." Two choices: internal and S/PDIF. n his example, Internal is selected.

    Now, on the far right, you see "S/PDIF Sample Rate." Hmmm, it's all greyed out. Must be because we've selected an internal clock. The only Choices we have for sample rate are the "Codec" (by which I summe they mean A/D and D/A conversion) rates. To "ungrey" the S/PDIF rate, you would choose "S/PDIF" for clock, which means you will be clocked to the external device.

    Now, if you are clocked to an exernal device at 44.1K and record at 48K...

    Never mind, Just go try it and see.

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    Originally posted by fezz parka
    I never use the digital out, but I think the adjustment is on the J-Edit toolbar.
    There's an digital output adjustment there, but it's not adequate for the problem. There's a setting somewhere that just makes them all have the same output, and I think I saw it described in a one-line reference in the docs somewhere, but I've never been able to find it again, though I've tried several times. I'll just have to read the docs over untill I find it.

    If I'm forced to use the J-Station in analog mode, which I should like to avoid if I can, this will of course be moot.
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  15. #15
    Gravity Jim
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    Fezz - I know, that "it's gotta be 48K" junk from video guys gets me crazy. At least the ones I work with know what 29.97 is, but they still aren't sure if they are recording drop frame or non-drop video half the time. A wise audio guy once said to me, "You can tell the TV guys don't know anyting about audio because they call it "sound."'

    The truth is, they all think it's gotta be 48 because that's the audio sample rate of digital Betcam.

  16. #16
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    OK, let me ask this, then:

    I decide to record everything at 44.1 and use the J-Station's S/PDIF out...

    If the external device and the Cubase have the same sample rate, then will the J-Station work with the internal clock, thus preventing external clock problems we were discussing?

    If not, one can only wonder what the intended purpose of the J-Station's S/PDIF out was in the first place, as it would seem quite useless for digital recording.
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  17. #17
    Gravity Jim
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    Bongolation... if you record at 44.1, then the J-Station's S/PDIF out will work fine... but I believe the sound card will have to be clocked to the incoming signal. Unless I am mistaken, clock info flows one way only, so it has to go in the direction of the signal.

    The clock on your sound card is probably comparable to the clock in the J-Station, so I don't think you'll experience much degradation, if any.

    Personally, I agree on the uselessness of the J-Station's S/PDIF out, and not just the J-Station, either... I don't think a digital OUT is worth a sweet rat's ass on ANY device that does not include a word clock IN. Because the clocks in almost all devices are junk, added as an afterthought, barely adequate high-jitter smear machines. My studio is clocked to a dedicated word clock generator, and I'm sure not gonna clock the whole thing off the 10-cent chip in a POD or Lexicon 'verb or anything.

    But these are not critical issues for the vast majority of home recordists.

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by Gravity Jim
    The clock on your sound card is probably comparable to the clock in the J-Station, so I don't think you'll experience much degradation, if any.

    Personally, I agree on the uselessness of the J-Station's S/PDIF out, and not just the J-Station, either...
    We'll see. My expectations aren't unreasonably high. The reason for my desire to use the S/PDIF interface with the J-Station is that it frees up the rackmount inputs and doubles the available channels. The fly in the ointment with the SeaSound was its two channels. Expander rack modules were needed to extend the number of channels. Technically, the SeaSound was a great device, but this two-channel limitation on the basic unit sunk Oberheim in a fiercely competitive market, plus he ran out of money before the W2000/XP drivers got completed. Between the time I left home to pick up my SeaSound and the time I got back, SeaSound announced bankruptcy on their website (my understanding is that Oberheim no longer even has commercial rights to his own name).

    How's that for timing?
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  19. #19
    fezz parka
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    That's the way gear goes. I'm dumping my Echo mia and upgrading to a MOTU 2408mk3. That should do me for a while...

  20. #20
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    Yes, Cubase is smart.. smarter than me obviously
    I have never tried S/PDIF, sorry about the confusion.
    I just turn it on and play It actually produces some great sounding stuff.

    I admit that I have alot more money invested than I really needed but maybe someday I'll really sit down and see what Cubase can do.... for now I just record from 3 to 15 tracks or so..

  21. #21
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    > Yes, Cubase is smart.. smarter than me obviously

    I don't mind Cubase being smarter, but I do wish it was less adversarial!

    Note that I'm using 5.1, as - lacking the right drivers - the SeaSound won't run under W2000/XP, thus eliminating Cubase SX.

    WDM has been released for Win98SE, and lack of WDM was the point of upgrading to Cubase SX/W2000, but I am unsure if Cubase 5.1 will recognize WDM under Win98SE, and with an existing latency of 14ms in the present configuration, I don't know if it's worth the hassle to experiment, especially given my extremely dim understanding of basic Cubase operation in the first place. The guys with the experimental (and very buggy) W2000/XP SeaSound drivers are claiming 2ms latencies under WDM/XP, but the bugs in this driver set aren't worth it for me either.

    Typically, I understand many of the advanced Cubase functions I don't need. It's the basic, fundamental stuff I do need with which I am struggling. Surprisingly (or not), it's impossible to find answers to practical questions in any of the docs I have, and I believe I have all known Steinberg and aftermarket English documentation for Cubase.

    Anyhow, I set up the J-Station, Cubase and SeaSound for 44.1/24 and recorded a few test tracks without any significant disasters or clicks nor pops on playback. How it will all synch up with MIDI tracks and straight audio, Lord knows...
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