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Thread: New to amplifiers need some guidance

  1. #1

    New to amplifiers need some guidance

    To start off let me apologize in advance for this lengthy thread... but I could sure use some help....!

    I have been playing "classical" guitar since the early 70s.. But I am also a big Jazz fan too.. the classics, so a while back I decided to try my hand at learning to play some of the ol' classic jazz solos. I didn't want to play these pieces on my classical guitar so I decided to buy myself a good Jazz Box, an Epiphone Joe Pass Emperor II Pro. The reason for the purchase of the Epiphone was based on the Youtube vids I had watched and threads I had read regarding a good entry level jazz guitar that plays and sounds well. On these vids and demos that guitar sounded fantastic, the Epiphone sounded just rightÂ…nice warm, soft tone. Plus buying the Epiphone I wouldnÂ’t have to take out a second mortgage.

    I also had a small “second hand” Fender "Frontman" amp from back in the early 90's. I had assumed that all I would need was a somewhat good guitar and a reliable small practice amp. I guess I made the mistake in thinking that with a well-made hollow body guitar and a little practice amp I could get that warm Jazz Tone. Well I am sure the more experienced here can see where this is going. Yes… it seems that the little Frontman just wasn’t gonna do it. So I did some more research and shopped around for a modestly priced AMP that would help me get that sound. That’s when sticker shock set in. Most the threads I read, and the YouTube discussions were saying I need a more robust amplifier to get the sound I wanted, and there were tons of suggestions on which to buy. Most implying that I would need to dish out at least three times more than what I plopped down on the Joe Pass to get me an AMP to produce that sound. So I searched some more and came across Fenders Mustang models. I saw that the SL25 had a Jazz preset , number 9 to be exact, so I bought it.
    That preset works somewhat well with the Epiphone. That and the flat wounds it is strung with. But I believe the AMP needs more tweaking. As I stated I have been playing classical guitar (nylon strings) and am not familiar as to what settings I need to adjust on an AMP to get that sound.
    I am hoping that someone here can maybe steer me in the right direction. With this amp, should I set all the actual physical nobs (vol, bass, treble and master) to 12 oÂ’clock and keep the gain knob down or off completely? Or should I turn the physical knobs completely off and just use the controls that are in the Jazz Preset?

  2. #2
    Forum Member phantomman's Avatar
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    Re: New to amplifiers need some guidance

    Of the Fender Mustang (and all other digital modeling amps) I know nothing. But I'm certain that for clean, organic jazz sounds you don't want that gain control engaged. For your particular style I'd start with the basic "jazz" pre-set and play around with the conventional tone controls (bass, mid, treble). Once you've found a pleasing vibe dial in a little reverb to open up the tone. Once you establish a basic protocol try experimenting with other pre-sets and perhaps some effects -- chorus, flange, tremolo, etc.
    "When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."

  3. #3
    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: New to amplifiers need some guidance

    Welcome to TFF @Always_Learning. I'm much the same as you. Except I play a broader range of stuff, including acoustic, blues, rock, etc. A little later today I will reveal to the forum my latest, which is much akin to your Epi Joe Pass (a highly regarded instrument, btw).

    At issue, I think, is that the semi-hollow and hollow body guitars align more with acoustic-electric guitars than they do with the slab-type solid bodies. Strats and Teles and such don't have sound chambers that toss around the vibrations, so all that's present is the pickup(s) under the string. Thus, the tone in a modeling amp can be tweaked nine ways to Sunday. But a pickup on a jazz guitar is picking up the chambered sound, which can throw things off. I hope I've described this accurately enough...

    So, I have a Fender Mustang II v2 and a Fender Champion 40. They work great for my slab guitars, but always sound "off" with my hollow bodies and acoustics. I nearly broke down and bought a Fishman Loudbox for that purpose, but I found a wonderful alternative: The Line 6 AMPLIFi 30.

    Now, the problem may be that the AMPLIFi line has been discontinued (The Spyder line has replaced it, I think). There are others from Yamaha, Positive Grid (I may get one of these if I need to replace the AMPLIFi) and more, but before you rush out and spend more money, I'd follow @phantomman's advice: Trying going for the most neutral sound on your amp and then dialing in the sound you want. To my ears, modeling amps are full of sounds that just don't appeal to me. The AMPLIFi has a phone/tablet companion app that lets you set three internal presets but also lets you download others and create your own. It's kind of fun to play with, but I always go for the "mostly clean" sound. The two effects I tend to add are a slight bit of reverb and a little bit of chorus.

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  4. #4
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: New to amplifiers need some guidance

    Rule number one for jazz, roll the danged tone off on the guitar. (Unless you're Danny Gatton.)

    Set the amp to a nice clean sound and then use the guitar tone control to dial it in. Be really careful with the dwell as it muddies up the mix. You usually won't need reverb with a Strat or hollowbody. The Strat has a built-in reverb tank.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  5. #5

    Re: New to amplifiers need some guidance

    I want to thank those who took the time to help this newbie to amps.

    I enjoy this amp, just wish it had as many presets as it's steriod brothers... More Amp selections.

    As I stated, new to using amps and wondering what levels I should dial into on the actual amp control plate. Not the online presets. Should the physical knobs, the one you can actually touch and turn be set to the 12 O'clock position or should they be rolled back or forward. I have rolled the "gain" to zero. But what to do with the volume, treble, bass and master..! And once the actual physical knobs and set, what to do with the ones in the application to get that WARM Jazz tone.

    Thanks and Peace Out )=

  6. #6
    Forum Member phantomman's Avatar
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    Re: New to amplifiers need some guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Learning View Post
    But what to do with the volume, treble, bass and master..! And once the actual physical knobs and set, what to do with the ones in the application to get that WARM Jazz tone.
    Experiment with the various settings (and combinations thereof) then let your ears decide.
    "When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."

  7. #7
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: New to amplifiers need some guidance

    What have you been studying, regarding jazz, and how do you approach the solos?

  8. #8
    Forum Member blackonblack's Avatar
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    Re: New to amplifiers need some guidance

    Catching up with this.

    OP, you never referenced how the tone you were getting was off.
    to offer recommendations, you need to say what you are getting, and where you want to head to. Then most likely, someone can either make recommendation on how to adjust , or if something else is needed.

    also how does the guitar sound to you unplugged from an amp?
    Mark

  9. #9
    Forum Member jrgtr42's Avatar
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    Re: New to amplifiers need some guidance

    Like Blackonblack said, you mentioned that you didn't care for what you hear, but what do you want to hear?
    The Frontmans weren't terrible beginner amps; for the ones in that range, at the time, by Crate, Peavey, Marshall, and so on, they sounded pretty good.
    But obviously compared to bigger, more expensive ones, they don't hold up.
    Interestingly, to us rock / distortion types, a lot of jazz cats like solid-state amps, by Roland, Polytone and a few others.
    I have an old Roland Cube 60 that does great for a jazz sound with my Gibson ES135, especially with the treble on the amp a bit down and the guitar's tone knob rolled off. Those are also pretty affordable amps.
    But that said, play with the one you have for now, twist them knobs - that's what they're there for - and I bet you can come up with something approaching a good sound. With that amp, to get a clean sound, you want the volume down and the master up, probably goose the bass and drop out some treble. Tweak as needed for your ears. And start saving for a bigger amp.
    ********************************
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    "It is if you don't drop it."
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  10. #10

    Re: New to amplifiers need some guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by blackonblack View Post
    Catching up with this.

    OP, you never referenced how the tone you were getting was off.
    to offer recommendations, you need to say what you are getting, and where you want to head to. Then most likely, someone can either make recommendation on how to adjust , or if something else is needed.

    also how does the guitar sound to you unplugged from an amp?
    B-on-B....I guess the tone I am currently getting is too Rock and Rolly in sound. Lots of high treble sound, I definately rolled the "gain" completely off. I have both the treble and bass knobs (physical ones) at about the 9-o'clock. Tone knob on the Joe Pass at about 4 and vol-knob on the JP at 2 or 3... So far the sound is still too crisp sounding. I did some research and found that they ship the JP with D'Addario chrome rounds (10-46). I would like a more mellow, warm sound.. Google Jens Larsen, Matt Otten or Joe Pass... That's the warm smooth mellow sound I want. Not too bass-ie.

    I may swap out the stock strings for a set of flats same gauge (10-48's).

    But I guess what I am curious about is using the "Fender APP" , the Jazz Preset... should I also roll back on the make-believe, computer/app generated knobs and set the actual physical on the front panel of the amp to 12-o'clock.

    Again much thanks to all who are replying...

    By the way... retired, on a fixed income... and can't justify dishing out a grand or more for tubes..!

  11. #11

    Re: New to amplifiers need some guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcane View Post
    What have you been studying, regarding jazz, and how do you approach the solos?
    Hey Sugar,

    I just stated earlier... have been studing and playing classical guitar since 1971, so pretty much familiar with scales, arpeggios, chords and the like.

    I will be honest.. have seldom held a guitar pick in my hand or done country / cowboy strumming.

    As for how I approch a jazz piece... I read the standard notation, tap out the rhythm before I pick up the guitar and tackle the piece. I play the melody line as it is written and also play the chords when they indicated.... as for improving.. not doing that as yet. I think I may stick with just using my fingers (nails included). But would consider a pick down the road.

    I watch Jens Larsens presentations a lot on the U-Tube weber-net.

    So that is my approach... it's worked well for me since the 70s.

    And again, I purchased the JP Emperor II-Pro to get that warm "amped" jazz tone.. Jazz pieces played on my Burguet classical just don't have that "sound".

  12. #12
    Forum Member phantomman's Avatar
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    Re: New to amplifiers need some guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Learning View Post
    By the way... retired, on a fixed income... and can't justify dishing out a grand or more for tubes..!
    There's no question that a more expensive amp will -- generally -- produce better tones but with the fundamentals you currently have on hand you should be able to find something that approximates what you hear in your head. Twist them knobs and flip them switches until you hear what pleases you. You're not going to harm your gear by experimenting with the controls......that's what they're there for. As far as strings go a heavier gauge with a wound G is probably what you're looking for. And don't neglect your guitar's electronics. When the instrument's tone control is all the way up that means that the pickup is generating the maximum amount of treble possible. Roll it down for a fuller, bassier tone.

    I share your "retired, on a fixed income" predicament. I have to pinch pennies all year long to make my quarterly tax payments to the IRS. But I manage......and so will you.
    "When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."

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