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Thread: Electric car pros and cons

  1. #1
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Electric car pros and cons

    What do you guys think?

    I just read this about the electric Ford F-150 Lightning and there are some statements that I had already thought about before...

    https://slate.com/business/2021/05/f...ic-weight.html



    I'm a bit skeptical myself about electric vehicles being entirely 'green'...

  2. #2
    Forum Member phantomman's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    You think electricity grows on trees?
    "When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."

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    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    Quote Originally Posted by phantomman View Post
    You think electricity grows on trees?
    precisely

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    Whatever the politics are, I don't care.

    My buddy has a Tesla, and it's a cool car. I can't get used to the lack of dashboard controls. I prefer gas vehicles now. And yet, it is a cool vehicle with get up and go.

    My dad was a Ford Glass factory employee for 30 years, and I still love regular old Fords. I drive an F-150, and wouldn't trade it for any other truck.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    i don't care about the politics involved. I think there are still way more than a few technological hurdles to overcome before all the 'mandates' for zero emission vehicles (henceforth called ZEVs)-only sales can be a practical reality. Battery tech, charging stations and mostly, infrastructure reinforcement if they can't get the weight down. Since the ZEVs don't pay gas taxes, I don't know how they're going to monetize their use to make funds available for infrastructure maintenance, in a fashion that doesn't punish all electricity users. Are mileage taxes going to be the wave of the future? Again, more politics and I've already stated I don't like it.

    On the other hand, I'm currently in a position where I no longer drive for recreational purposes. I rarely drive out of town anymore. In another decade or so, I probably won't be driving myself at all unless my eyesight stays stable. I'm actually very much in favor of autonomous vehicles as I think 95+% of the people out there are functionally incapable of properly operating ANY motor vehicle. Fuck flying cars, the idiots can't even handle 2 dimensions correctly.

    Again, I don't think we're close enough to the overcoming of the tech hurdles for self-driving cars. We're still 10-15 years from that point. But I definitely think ZEVs and self-drive should be a simultaneous goal.

    And yes, I do believe that the whole zero emissions is a falsehood. The electricity has to come from somewhere and even with all the so-called renewable sources, the vast majority is still generated by fossil fuels. Right now, all you're doing is moving the tail pipe to a smokestack.
    "Live and learn and flip the burns"

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    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    My daily driver is a 2015 smart fortwo electric drive. NOT a hybrid - all electric. And it only weighs 2,535 pounds!

    I bought it because the house I purchased in 2017 came equipped with a 240v EVSE (geekspeak: Electric Vehicle Service Equipmet - a charger). It was an experiment at first; I was curious about electric vehicles. Because most of my driving is in the 2 to 8 mile range, it's so much more convenient to hop in and go (I'm at my destination before my internal combustion engine (ICE) powered car has warmed up). Off the top of my head, here are the pros and cons that I find:

    PROS:

    • Nearly maintenance free. I replaced the tires and brakes when I bought it, and now 35,000 miles later, they're still in great shape. No oil changes, lubrication needs, and if I want to clean or replace the cabin filter, I can do that myself.
    • It's fun to drive. Like playing guitar, that's a personal preference, but it handles well, has great off the line acceleration, and has a remarkable amount of storage space for a small two-seater.
    • It's inexpensive to operate. Since I bought it just a couple of months after I moved into my home, I don't know how much it costs me per month in electricity, but the price of gas has gone up and down considerably, especially lately. On my vacation trip last week, I was paying up to $3.70/gal (my ICE takes premium) and put nearly $130 worth of gas in it. Granted, I drove nearly 400 miles each way, so that's not typical, but under typical conditions I could be spending nearly $200/month on gas.
    • Parking it is easy. And there are some places the provide preferred parking for hybrids (it's not a hybrid, so I don't usually park there).


    CONS:

    • Range. This is old Tesla technology, so the battery is only able to provide about 90 miles of range under optimal conditions. 72 miles is more realistic.
    • I said optimal conditions. Battery capacity is affected by weather; I get far less range in winter than I do in summer. In fact, moderate temperatures (68-72 degrees) is when it's at its best.
    • Charging time. I could charge the car using household 110v, but it could take up to 11 hours to go from 0 to full. My 240v charger can cut that time in half. Truthfully, no one ever goest to "E" that I know of, but still, even waiting in a gas line for 15 minutes or so and then taking five minutes to fill beats that all hollow.


    Both of the cons are being addressed. The nifty
    Hyundai Ioniq 5 (check it out; I'm considering reserving one!) gives you over 60 miles of range with just a five-minute charge, or you can charge it from 10 percent to 80 percent in just under 18 minutes.⁠ The range, depending on vehicle options is said to be 244 - 300 miles. That's a whole lot closer to the ICE comparison!


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    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    that's pretty cool. However, knowing what I know about Americans and our obsession with plus-sized vehicles (often to accommodate plus-sized bodies), I was thinking about the 6,000 pound weight of the Lightning 150. There are already EV Hummers, those won't be light. Very soon, Cadillac will be having EV Escalades, Ford will have EV Expeditions, GM EV Suburban, Tahoes, etc. We're going to be facing 6, 7, maybe even 8 thousand pound road beasts, most of which will also probably boast acceleration once reserved for pure hot rod rat racers. That's a pretty scary scenario, especially when you factor in that frankly, people are NOT capable of dealing with driving in conscientious, sensible and safe fashion.
    "Live and learn and flip the burns"

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    I just bought a cordless electric lawnmower. I love it! Is this the first step???

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    Quote Originally Posted by OldStrummer View Post
    My daily driver is a 2015 smart fortwo electric drive. NOT a hybrid - all electric. And it only weighs 2,535 pounds!

    I bought it because the house I purchased in 2017 came equipped with a 240v EVSE (geekspeak: Electric Vehicle Service Equipmet - a charger). It was an experiment at first; I was curious about electric vehicles. Because most of my driving is in the 2 to 8 mile range, it's so much more convenient to hop in and go (I'm at my destination before my internal combustion engine (ICE) powered car has warmed up). Off the top of my head, here are the pros and cons that I find:

    PROS:

    • Nearly maintenance free. I replaced the tires and brakes when I bought it, and now 35,000 miles later, they're still in great shape. No oil changes, lubrication needs, and if I want to clean or replace the cabin filter, I can do that myself.
    • It's fun to drive. Like playing guitar, that's a personal preference, but it handles well, has great off the line acceleration, and has a remarkable amount of storage space for a small two-seater.
    • It's inexpensive to operate. Since I bought it just a couple of months after I moved into my home, I don't know how much it costs me per month in electricity, but the price of gas has gone up and down considerably, especially lately. On my vacation trip last week, I was paying up to $3.70/gal (my ICE takes premium) and put nearly $130 worth of gas in it. Granted, I drove nearly 400 miles each way, so that's not typical, but under typical conditions I could be spending nearly $200/month on gas.
    • Parking it is easy. And there are some places the provide preferred parking for hybrids (it's not a hybrid, so I don't usually park there).


    CONS:

    • Range. This is old Tesla technology, so the battery is only able to provide about 90 miles of range under optimal conditions. 72 miles is more realistic.
    • I said optimal conditions. Battery capacity is affected by weather; I get far less range in winter than I do in summer. In fact, moderate temperatures (68-72 degrees) is when it's at its best.
    • Charging time. I could charge the car using household 110v, but it could take up to 11 hours to go from 0 to full. My 240v charger can cut that time in half. Truthfully, no one ever goest to "E" that I know of, but still, even waiting in a gas line for 15 minutes or so and then taking five minutes to fill beats that all hollow.


    Both of the cons are being addressed. The nifty
    Hyundai Ioniq 5 (check it out; I'm considering reserving one!) gives you over 60 miles of range with just a five-minute charge, or you can charge it from 10 percent to 80 percent in just under 18 minutes.⁠ The range, depending on vehicle options is said to be 244 - 300 miles. That's a whole lot closer to the ICE comparison!


    That looks like fun! Is that about a 600 pound weight gain over the gas version?

    We rented a gas powered early Smart Fortwo convertible on Block Island a couple of years ago and really enjoyed it in that environment.

    I just saw someone converting Miatas. If I recall, the car gained less than 200 pounds and performed better in a straight line, but had fairly short range due to the need to keep the car's weight down.

  10. #10
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    I just bought a cordless electric lawnmower. I love it! Is this the first step???
    That’s probably as close as I’ll ever get to owning an electric car.

  11. #11
    Forum Member gibsonjunkie's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    Just got an electric chain saw. Pretty nice tool. Two 24v batteries give it lots of juice. I do believe that the current status of gas vs. electric can't sustain forever, so we do need to go down this road, but we aren't there yet. Early adopters help pave the way for major change.
    "We catched fish and talked, and we took a swim now and then to keep off sleepiness." Mark Twain

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    I just bought an electric cattle prod. Makes for a lot of fun when standing in line at Kroger.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member blackonblack's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    While technology is improving, there are still a substantial number of hurdles for electric cars.

    Range- while improving, the time needed to recharge is significant. What you could travel in 14 hours in a gas car will take 20-24 hrs in an electric. Add the need for heat or AC, and that disparity increases.

    Truly green? A couple facts:
    Just because you’re not combusting fuel, doesn’t mean green. There’s a plant somewhere that is generating that electricity. With the state of the infrastructure, those plants are less efficient than the modern gasoline engine. So more raw material is used and more possible negative environmental impacts are made.

    Next, remember the last time you bought a std car battery? Remember that environmental impact fee? Batteries present an environmental risk. Now escalate that by hundreds, if not thousands fold per each vehicle.

    Last (for now), cost of ownership long haul. Rather than replacing an engine, you have to replace a cell unit. Last I checked, a new set for a Tesla is roughly 2-3x a crate engine from Jasper.
    Mark

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    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    For me, the biggest pro for electric is the performance.


    Con- cost of ownership. My current daily driver was about $80K, if I got the hybrid version it pushed the price up another $40K!!!!. That's equal to a lot gas my brothers. It would be nice to have the extra "zing" of the hybrid off the line, but not that much.

    My other beef is that electric is nice but the future is hydrogen. Best of both worlds. You get an electric car you can refuel in a couple minutes with damn-near free fuel. If you have water and a windmill you can make your own fuel off the grid. Hydrogen is where it's at. As soon as the fuel cell manufacturing is mature it will be goodbye batteries.

    Plus current electric tech relies on a lot of rare-earth metals that are only available in the Congo or China, so that's not sustainable.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    OA and black, do you guys think this fad will completely overcome the fuel burning car system worldwide before people realize it won’t be as sustainable after all?

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    Forum Member blackonblack's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    Quote Originally Posted by Sérgio View Post
    OA and black, do you guys think this fad will completely overcome the fuel burning car system worldwide before people realize it won’t be as sustainable after all?
    Unfortunately, at least in the US, I’d say no. There is so much rhetoric, media and Gov push for this, it will continue, much to the stalling of what should be looked at, which is exactly what OA said.
    I remember having a conversation with my day in the mid 70s exactly on this topic. Hydrogen is the way to go. The waste from hydrogen combustion is largely O2. Last I checked, that’s a good thing.
    As a whole, I think it’s good we are exploring electric cars, but it’s only an incremental developmental step. To think it’s the cure is not only near sighted, but also false.

    The fervor for this is, it feels good. I’m doing the right thing.
    That is an incorrect a presumption as an anti hunter talking about those evils while eating a steak.

    And the simple fact is, a modern combustion is more efficient than most
    power plants.
    Mark

  17. #17
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    So you mean to say “unfortunately yes”.

    I agree with you.

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    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    More efficient ICE would be less polluting than electric cars but like it's been said, social pressures and media are pushing EVs as the cure all save all, that they really aren't. If we could get people out of massive rolling living rooms and into more sensible vehicles, that would make more of a difference.

    Unfortunately, the level of scientific ignorance rampant in our society is probably the biggest impediment to finding real solutions. Can you say "flat earthers" or "moon landing hoaxers"? I can't imagine the heyday these tools would get out of hydrogen power, suddenly they'll all be experts on the Hindenburg and how we're all going to blow up and burn.

    the solution isn't going to be all or nothing. Certainly not like the mandates of certain states saying "no new ICE" by an arbitrary date. Again, that's politics and not science and that's all I'm going to say about that.
    "Live and learn and flip the burns"

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    Forum Member blackonblack's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheBluesMan View Post
    More efficient ICE would be less polluting than electric cars but like it's been said, social pressures and media are pushing EVs as the cure all save all, that they really aren't. If we could get people out of massive rolling living rooms and into more sensible vehicles, that would make more of a difference.

    Unfortunately, the level of scientific ignorance rampant in our society is probably the biggest impediment to finding real solutions. Can you say "flat earthers" or "moon landing hoaxers"? I can't imagine the heyday these tools would get out of hydrogen power, suddenly they'll all be experts on the Hindenburg and how we're all going to blow up and burn.

    the solution isn't going to be all or nothing. Certainly not like the mandates of certain states saying "no new ICE" by an arbitrary date. Again, that's politics and not science and that's all I'm going to say about that.
    TRUTH!!!
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    Forum Member phantomman's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    The concept of alternative transportation fuels is the Gordian Knot of all Gordian Knots due to the myriad of ancillary ramifications -- political, economic, environmental, etc and some states such as California have jumped the gun by threatening to outlaw the sale of combustible-fuel motor vehicles by the year 2025. We're all aware of how easily Doc Brown fueled his Delorean in "Back To the Future" by dumping garbage into its Mr. Fusion reactor but such a device might be a century away from fruition, currently belonging in the same category as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Electrically-driven vehicles are certainly within the realm of possibility but there remain many shortcomings with our contemporary technology. Hydrogen is a promising prospect but that paradigm is still decades away from practical applications. I offer no answers, merely the primary highlights of a debate yet to be decided.

    I'll shut my pie hole now.
    "When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."

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    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheBluesMan View Post
    More efficient ICE would be less polluting than electric cars but like it's been said, social pressures and media are pushing EVs as the cure all save all, that they really aren't. If we could get people out of massive rolling living rooms and into more sensible vehicles, that would make more of a difference.

    Unfortunately, the level of scientific ignorance rampant in our society is probably the biggest impediment to finding real solutions. Can you say "flat earthers" or "moon landing hoaxers"? I can't imagine the heyday these tools would get out of hydrogen power, suddenly they'll all be experts on the Hindenburg and how we're all going to blow up and burn.

    the solution isn't going to be all or nothing. Certainly not like the mandates of certain states saying "no new ICE" by an arbitrary date. Again, that's politics and not science and that's all I'm going to say about that.
    Dan,

    Me being a rocket scientist and all, I'd like you to back that up. That's a pretty bold statement to make with no thermodynamics behind it. (BTW, thermodynamics is not the study of heat transfer, it's the study of energy transfer and entropy within a system).

    Just calling out "scientific ignorance" is a bit self-serving- and perhaps under-informed. Perhaps you'd like to give your qualifications to add authority to your claim.

    From everything I see, EV's are highly efficient. Even F1 racing shows that. Trains have been hybrids for over 70 years. I've worked on electric airplane technology.

    And as for the "making the batteries" or "Where does the electricity come from?" claims, go visit a foundry and see how much electricity they use in the arc furnaces casting the engine parts on an IC vehicle. Or the cooling liquid that gets used turning the castings into machined parts that needs to be discarded, or how much the electricity the machining centers use making the IC engine parts. Oh yeah, people either conveniently forget that part or don't know anything about manufacturing and engineering. How much fuel is used mining the ores for IC engines? I can go on. Yes a lot of metal is reclaimed, but that usually goes into soda cans and cheap products, not ASTM high alloys used in ICE's, since by the time you do the XRF and OCS testing to determine the recycled alloy composition the price is pretty high. Oh yeah, you also need to test for radioactivity in a lot of recycled alloys too.

    So, I gotta call bullshit on calling people "Hoaxers" or "Flat Earthers" when in fact they are moving technology forward.

    As for my "massive rolling living room", boo hoo. I can afford it and I enjoy it. Get over it. Last I heard this was a free country.

    As a final note I'll remind you that the stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones. Something better came along.


    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  22. #22
    Forum Member phantomman's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler View Post
    As a final note I'll remind you that the stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones. Something better came along.
    Well stated, sir......hand salute!
    "When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."

  23. #23
    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler View Post
    Dan,

    Just calling out "scientific ignorance" is a bit self-serving- and perhaps under-informed. Perhaps you'd like to give your qualifications to add authority to your claim.
    Not going to brag, just stating that my score on the Junior Engineering Technological Survey couldn't be graded because it exceeded the 99th percentile (I answered all but 4 of the 400 questions). I have a natural affinity for science that is shared by a shocking few number of people. My main downfall from being an actual engineer was calculus.

    people getting their 'facts' from Facebook and other social media instead of learning them in the classroom, need I say more?

    From everything I see, EV's are highly efficient. Even F1 racing shows that. Trains have been hybrids for over 70 years. I've worked on electric airplane technology.
    wasn't saying the vehicles were inefficient, the generation process and transmission process of our antiquated electrical infrastructure delivery system is. Do you deny that?

    And as for the "making the batteries" or "Where does the electricity come from?" claims, go visit a foundry and see how much electricity they use in the arc furnaces casting the engine parts on an IC vehicle. Or the cooling liquid that gets used turning the castings into machined parts that needs to be discarded, or how much the electricity the machining centers use making the IC engine parts. Oh yeah, people either conveniently forget that part or don't know anything about manufacturing and engineering. How much fuel is used mining the ores for IC engines? I can go on. Yes a lot of metal is reclaimed, but that usually goes into soda cans and cheap products, not ASTM high alloys used in ICE's, since by the time you do the XRF and OCS testing to determine the recycled alloy composition the price is pretty high. Oh yeah, you also need to test for radioactivity in a lot of recycled alloys too.
    No new materials go into EVs then? Have you looked at the lithium mining and processing wastes? What about disposal of the used cells? If you had left out the "where does the electricity come from" I can concede to these points.

    So, I gotta call bullshit on calling people "Hoaxers" or "Flat Earthers" when in fact they are moving technology forward.
    uh, sorry. you lost me on that one. If people believe in falsehoods, then I fail to see how "they are moving technology forward."

    As for my "massive rolling living room", boo hoo. I can afford it and I enjoy it. Get over it. Last I heard this was a free country.
    Did I touch a nerve? Sorry, I wasn't trying to single you out there.

    As a final note I'll remind you that the stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones. Something better came along.


    Chuck
    I like the last one. Chuck, please, don't debase your rocket scientist credentials trying to defend flat earthers and hoaxers. I respect engineers and rocket scientists, my uncle worked for NASA. The fact is, people are being lead to believe that EV are all green and the only way to go. It is becoming a polarizing issue, as seemingly every thing in this country.
    "Live and learn and flip the burns"

  24. #24
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    Dan,

    With all due respect, I think I'm much more qualified to represent the rocket scientists and engineers than you are, thank you very much.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  25. #25
    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: Electric car pros and cons

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler View Post
    Dan,

    With all due respect, I think I'm much more qualified to represent the rocket scientists and engineers than you are, thank you very much.
    You're welcome and I have no doubt you are qualified so. I didn't claim to be.
    "Live and learn and flip the burns"

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