May I have your attention, please?

[S. Cane]

Please allow me to address this subject, although it's a bit of an unpleasant one. Not all forum users are on Facebook, so I think this should be discussed here.

We are witnessing difficulties in mantaining TFF, such as keeping a certificate up to date. Many of us addressed this issue at the twin place, the Les Paul Forum, and as we already thought, they are not inclined to maintain and watch two forums. And yes, we all know it costs time and money.

https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.p...-forum.216871/

I love this place more because of the people than the site itself. Yes, we have tons of contents but who actually browses old threads? The ones that are brought up are rarely kept up and sometimes people even whine about resurrecting old posts.

So, either we stay here and offer financial and labor help to the owners, in order to keep the forum running properly, or we move to the main site (lespaulforum.com) and stick all together there... Maybe it's time to take a vote or something.

[ch willie]

I'd gladly commit some of my time to help. If it's grunt work of some kind I'll do it. If we need to solicit ads, I can help with that: communicate with potential advertisers, write, edit, etc. I'll do jobs small or large, whatever it takes as long as others are helping too.






.

[S. Cane]

Personally, I think an exodus to the LPF would be the easiest way. It's the 'mother forum' so to speak, and many of us are already registered there. It'd be just a matter of interacting with each other there. The sunday threads would help gathering us in the alien territory...

Plus, we don't really get new members who actually stick around. I don't know. As much as I love it here, I wouldn't mind being with you guys at a faster paced place. If I were to vote, I'd go with Cogs' idea and take everyone there.

I am registered there since 2014, my username is the same.

[OldStrummer]

If the parent site/company doesn't want to keep TFF going, why don't they just close it? Announce the possibility of "migrating" to TLPF by such-and-such a date and be done with it?

[S. Cane]

If the parent site/company doesn't want to keep TFF going, why don't they just close it? Announce the possibility of "migrating" to TLPF by such-and-such a date and be done with it?

I think the owners know some of us love it here and respect that. This forum was about to be shut down a couple of years ago and Kenny Fortunato saved it by taking care of the admininstration.

However, maintaining a forum is indeed something that demands time and money. The tendency is that this platform rots on and on from now on, as we are seeing.

That’s the sole reason I started this thread: I think we should make a decision about what to do and do it.

[vinyl]

If the parent site/company doesn't want to keep TFF going, why don't they just close it? Announce the possibility of "migrating" to TLPF by such-and-such a date and be done with it?

I have no interest in "migrating" to the Les Paul forum. I don't think labor is the issue, there seem to be plenty of moderators.

I donated money last year, but I had no say in how that money was spent, nor did I expect to. My personal opinion is money is the issue.

I have no idea what a SSL certificate costs. Hosting can get expensive.

From the "what have you bought guitar-related in the last 48 hours?" thread, some people have money to spend.

Maybe they should consider donating. I passed up an amp in order to donate.

There is no free lunch.

[OldStrummer]

This is one of my favorite sites/forums, too. I don't feel the same sense of community at TLPF. I'm here every day, and as many of you are aware, I start a lot of the Sunday threads.

It may be that money is an issue, but would it be so awful for Kenny or the owners to start a donations thread? If you look for how to contribute, you'll be lost soon, I fear. TLPF recently updated their software to Xenforo, as many forums are these days, from what I've seen in my travels. It has its ups and downs, but it seems to be the favorite of forum owners, and it's not free. This site uses vBulletin, and it is also not free (but its initial costs are less than Xenforo). As they say, the devil is in the details, as ongoing costs include administration, hosting, backups, failover/disaster recovery, storage, etc.

Since 1995 I have had my own Internet domain. I've gone through a number of evolutionary changes over the years, and currently I just use it as a journaling platform running WordPress. I've thought about launching a forum on it, but I believe my hosting charges would start bankrupting me if it took on a real life of its own. My point is that WordPress is but one of a multitude of software packages capable of running a forum.

So, rock or a hard place? If we donated, that doesn't necessarily mean that the site would continue to live. We are users and guests here, so the decision really rests with the owners. Leaving it hanging in Limbo just doesn't seem to be the ideal response.

[gibsonjunkie]

I joined both forums in September 2003. I posted 98 messages on LPF and 6,303 on TFF. Never clicked (pun intended) over there (although I have no complaints, either). I'd be willing to help pay to keep this place running and do whatever else I could to help, but I don't know if we really have the critical mass to keep this place alive. It seems like if we said we have a couple dozen regulars, that would be generous. It just seems pretty hard to isolate posts from you guys over there - that they would get lost in all the other noise. Maybe if they let us have the "Whammy Bar" as a subset of the Fender section at least it would be easy to keep up with each other.

[S. Cane]

I thought of that too. Also, We’d start threads with TFF in the title. And of course, the Sunday threads would be obligatory.

[Cogs]

If the community you have here means something to you, I would highly recommend that you take as much of it that you can & migrate to the LPF. It won't cost a thing just to give it a try.
As I said in another place, most of you guys came here as exiles from another forum. Just do that gypsy thing & move it over to the LPF. It's all freshly remodeled & ready for a bunch of dumbasses.
And you'll find some familiar names over there, too. renderit, for one, is a good guy & a regular poster.
I don't post a lot on either board these days, but I don't think there's anything like a Sunday Mawnin thread over there.
And eventually this place will get certified & it'll be back up & running like its been hit with a portable defibrillator

[dirtdog]

Hey folks. I've been thinking this through...

I feel that there's only three options: 1. stay here, 2. go elsewhere, or 3. build something new.

Options 1 and 3 will require labour to setup and/or ongoing maintenance, having some governance to ensure business continuity, volunteer labour to moderate (and manage the moderation function). Basically, need to stand up a new IT/IM department! This will require funding - either though contributions and/or ad revenue. I really don't think we have the user base to achieve the economy of scale needed to do either. I have no idea what the operating costs are for a forum, but I'm sure they're not negligible. Divide those costs by the number of active members - not including freeloaders (like me!) - and I think it becomes less achievable over time. What are we each willing to pay to keep this on life-support - $10/month? $50/month? As someone mentioned earlier, we just don't have the critical mass at this point - and we'd largely be in the business of operating what I like to call a "self-licking ice cream cone". I honestly wouldn't want to commit to being the IT/IM department for TFF.

Option 1 gives us the ability to maintain the historic archive of posts, but is that a top priority? Or is the top priority to keep the community alive moving forward? Option 3 may give us this as well, but not without some effort and expense to migrate the database(s).

We're left with Option 2 as a more realistic scenario, if there's agreement to start fresh somewhere else. The questions remain: where and how? I see two potential approaches: structured and ad-hoc.

For the structured approach:

- LPF is most certainly an option, especially if we can leverage setting up a new subforum for us reprobates. And leverage the argument of not expending resources to maintain TFF as-is.
- Other musician forums that we can tag onto? That might be difficult as there's not much of an incentive we can offer to any other site owners to set us up with our own space for a couple of dozen people.
- Upside is that we don't need to stand up an IT/IM function and can be a place where we could likely get some more traffic. Can leverage some of the culture from TFF if we play our cards right (e.g., creative sub-forum name)
- Downside is getting lost in the noise.

For an ad hoc approach:

- is there another platform we all migrate to and organically replicate our own community? Of course, the social medias come to mind. Personally, I don't partake in the facebook, twitter, instagram stuff. Done with that. I like forums since there's little bleed wrt "other topics".
- LPF comes to mind again - can we replicate this community in an existing subforum. If we all jump over there, perhaps start with a TFF Sunday thread - but instead of starting a new thread each week, we keep one thread perpetually rolling - kind of like the UK TFFers did on TFF.

I see this last bullet being what's called the "minimum viable product". Basically repeating what Cogs says above. If we can't even achieve that, this little community as we know it now goes up in smoke.

It would be interesting to see if we could somehow bundle up and archive the existing TFF database, have that hosted somewhere and have it be read-only. But as someone else has noted, does anyone really go deep into those posts anymore? It would be a shame to lose that written history, though.

[S. Cane]

Exactly, DD.

Look, I'd be the last guy in here to say I WANT to go somewhere else. You guys know how much I love it here. But let's be honest:

a) TFF doesn't get new members. New users come in, post once or twice, and leave for good.

b) Most of the old timers left for good and won't come back at all. I spent years trying to email the old gang and bring them back. Most replied saying they hated what happened in the past and were too offended to come back. That all was before my time here, so I don't know what's that all about but it doesn't matter anyway.

c) I used to like to dig out old threads to enjoy the contents of this forum. I stopped doing that because not only most users disliked old threads emerging, but also I was even addressed by mods telling me they were getting complaints (!!!). That shows precisely how much the shared knowledge of TFF is valued. I say bury it all, it's the people that matter, not the old threads. Nobody cares about them anyway, that's the truth.

d) We don't really focus our discussions here on Fender products. We talk about tone, instruments in general, share our experiences, talk about music... And the LPF has a Fender area anyway.

Also, all these cats are already registered users and posters at the LPF, that I know of:

Me
chwillie
Offshore Angler
Cogs
Oldstrummer
jrgtr42
Don
Coyotesgator
Laker
Danthebluesman
Gibsonjunkie
Renderit
Two others whose TFF usernames I ignore

I think there's no easier option here.

All we need to do is start our favorite permanent threads like "what are you listening to", "what have you bought" and our classic "Sunday threads". We'll all be there anyway. I started one:

https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.p.../#post-2880704

[dirtdog]

Exactly, DD.

Look, I'd be the last guy in here to say I WANT to go somewhere else. You guys know how much I love it here. But let's be honest:

a) TFF doesn't get new members. New users come in, post once or twice, and leave for good.

b) Most of the old timers left for good and won't come back at all. I spent years trying to email the old gang and bring them back. Most replied saying they hated what happened in the past and were too offended to come back. That all was before my time here, so I don't know what's that all about but it doesn't matter anyway.

c) I used to like to dig out old threads to enjoy the contents of this forum. I stopped doing that because not only most users disliked old threads emerging, but also I was even addressed by mods telling me they were getting complaints (!!!). That shows precisely how much the shared knowledge of TFF is valued. I say bury it all, it's the people that matter, not the old threads. Nobody cares about them anyway, that's the truth.

d) We don't really focus our discussions here on Fender products. We talk about tone, instruments in general, share our experiences, talk about music... And the LPF has a Fender area anyway.

Also, all these cats are already registered users and posters at the LPF, that I know of:

Me
chwillie
Offshore Angler
Cogs
Oldstrummer
jrgtr42
Don
Coyotesgator
Laker
Danthebluesman
Gibsonjunkie
Renderit
Two others whose TFF usernames I ignore

I think there's no easier option here.

All we need to do is start our favorite permanent threads like "what are you listening to", "what have you bought" and our classic "Sunday threads". We'll all be there anyway. I started one:

https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.p.../#post-2880704

That’s a good idea, continuing out more popular threads on LPF - reflects the current culture on this forum anyways.

I’m on LPF as well, thought it was the same username as here but it’s been a decade or more since I last logged in there. Back in the Lily days.

I’m agreeable to carrying on the conversation over there....and I see you’ve hooked a couple of new people already!!!

[S. Cane]

That’s a good idea, continuing out more popular threads on LPF - reflects the current culture on this forum anyways.

I’m on LPF as well, thought it was the same username as here but it’s been a decade or more since I last logged in there. Back in the Lily days.

I’m agreeable to carrying on the conversation over there....and I see you’ve hooked a couple of new people already!!!

What's your username there?

I am sporting "TFF Original Member" in my signature there. Written in blue. Sort of like a Motorcycle club patch

We can also start a "The TFF Lounge" as a permanent thread, like the UK guys did here for years.

[dirtdog]

What's your username there?

I am sporting "TFF Original Member" in my signature there. Written in blue. Sort of like a Motorcycle club patch

We can also start a "The TFF Lounge" as a permanent thread, like the UK guys did here for years.

I'm tracking my username down as we speak. I fear I might need to re-register....I used an old email address attached to that old profile.

YES! A perpetual TFF lounge thread like the UK guys had here is a superb idea.

[dirtdog]

What's your username there?

I am sporting "TFF Original Member" in my signature there. Written in blue. Sort of like a Motorcycle club patch

We can also start a "The TFF Lounge" as a permanent thread, like the UK guys did here for years.

Just re-upped as "DirtDog".

[S. Cane]

YES! A perpetual TFF lounge thread like the UK guys had here is a superb idea.

https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.p...lounge.216963/

[vinyl]

It's all freshly remodeled & ready for a bunch of dumbasses.

Moderators resorting to name calling.

[S. Cane]

Moderators resorting to name calling.

He was referring to an old TFF joke that is already a tradition. There’s even an emoticon for that (). He meant no insult.

[OldStrummer]

Well, I admit to now spending a little more time on LPF. Their implementation of Xenforo is a bit different than other sites I've seen, so I'm familiarizing myself with the lay of the land. I see Sérgio has already started a "What Have You Bought Guitar-Related in the Past 48 Hours" and there's also a "Sunday Thread (In Exile)" (LOL!), so it's beginning to take on a familiar tone. I've put those two threads on my watch list, so we'll see how it goes.

Unless I'm mistaken, Kenny F. is one of the bigwigs there, too. Maybe he's been so busy there that he hasn't had time to spend on TFF.

[Cogs]

Moderators resorting to name calling.

A term of endearment among the old timers. If you got called a dumbass you knew you were among friends

[vinyl]

A term of endearment among the old timers. If you got called a dumbass you knew you were among friends

My apologies to Cogs. It was a cheap shot, and I am a dumbass, but not in a term of endearment way.

I'm a relative newcomer here, and admittedly haven't learned all the history, but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate the efforts of Cogs and the other moderators.

[S. Cane]

My apologies to Cogs. It was a cheap shot, and I am a dumbass, but not in a term of endearment way.

I'm a relative newcomer here, and admittedly haven't learned all the history, but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate the efforts of Cogs and the other moderators.

It’s all good, buddy! Peace, love, and check in here:

https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.p...lounge.216963/

[Don]

My apologies to Cogs. It was a cheap shot, and I am a dumbass, but not in a term of endearment way.

I'm a relative newcomer here, and admittedly haven't learned all the history, but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate the efforts of Cogs and the other moderators.

I try to be careful with the use of the term "dumbass" with new members because it has caused misunderstandings in the past.

[ch willie]

I was confused the first time I saw mention of dumb ass. But I knew I was a dumb ass so I just thought I’d found my natural community.

[Cogs]

Naw, I knew it would likely be taken offensively, but what good is an inside joke, then?
lol

[vinyl]

It’s all good, buddy! Peace, love, and check in here:

https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.p...lounge.216963/

No thanks, I'm done here.

[phantomman]

No thanks, I'm done here.

+1

I won't be making that forced migration like some modern-day incarnation of the "Trail Of Tears" either. If the TFF is to die, then let it be a dignified death befitting an iconic institution that provided so much to so many. I'll always remember it fondly.

[OldStrummer]

I have to say that I'm having a little difficulty "liking" LPF. I like it here, for sure.

[gibsonjunkie]

I find LPF has the same problem that "Lets Talk Guild has. There are so many people on it that I have to weed through the "noise" to get to the threads I want to read. Here I just click New Posts and I see everything I need to., Over there it is usually two-three pages of posts to wade through.

[S. Cane]

The way I see this, it's like they say: we can't always get what we want...

If you ask me what I'd rather do, I wouldn't even blink, I'd want to stay here. However, I agree with the ones who say that forums are all about the guys, not the place itself, that's why I embraced the LPF idea.

What bothers me here is that no new members stay at all and the old bunch post very scarcely, which makes the forum very slow and not worth maintaining to the owners. The place is dying fast, and personally I don't think it's just a matter of letting it die and then just remember it. I have real friends here, guys with whom I talk to in a daily basis, guys with whom I've exchanged gifts, guys who were there with me when I got married and so on... I don't just log in here and drop messages because I'm bored or anything. Friends matter to me.

I really don't like the fact that the forum is getting old and its technology is getting more and more unsustainable, soon we won't be able to use it properly. Vide the certificate issue. Eventually, they'll shut it down.

The LPF on the other hand is definitely not a real crowded forum, just take a look at Strat Talk for instance. And there are several great guys there who'd add to our crew.

Anyway, I'll be here as long as TFF stands, but I'll also be somewhere else regularly if most of you guys are there too...

[OldStrummer]

I wish I could get into the heads of the site owners.

They don't charge for membership. They don't even solicit donations. Of course there are costs to run any web site, forum or otherwise. They seem content to have done that for ages. Why? What do they get out of it? Is it a labor of love? If so, why is it now fading? I don't like to offer my credentials in a place like this, but I have an MBA in IT Management. So, it baffles me as to what the business model is, and why now things have changed.

My guess is that the costs of running LPF have become more of a burden (new software, possibly new hosting, administrative fees, etc.) that maintaining this site no longer offers the same sense of personal satisfaction, and bringing everyone under the same umbrella makes more sense.

But I'm like GJ. I don't have any interest in discussions between the vagaries of an R6 and an R9. Heck, I barely even know what those are!

There's also an awful lot of "chaff" to the wheat. We're a pretty polite bunch of people here for the most part, and I see people hijacking threads and being self-absorbed jerks over there. I recently removed myself from a number of sites that had devolved into poo-flinging contests.

I'm going to ride out both for a bit. But I already notice that I spend a whole lot less time on LPF than I do here. Here, I read every unread post, whether it's of personal interest to me or not. I can't possibly do that there.

[S. Cane]

Well, since it seems that even some of the TFFers who migrated aren't feeling particularly well there, then maybe it's time to think about staying here and making a collective 'petition' to the owners to keep this place running, one way or another. Be it by way of donations or sponsoring, or hell, who knows. Some of us could volunteer to admin the place. I'm in, if I'm not alone.

What really kills me is to love a place lke I love it here and see the Sword of Damocles upon its head, getting heavier and sharper everyday.

Sincerely, I refuse to see it just fade away.

I apologize to every which one of you if I'm seeming too "activistic" or anything but I simply wish to keep the group together.

[phantomman]

Many times I volunteered to moderate during the late/wee hours in order to weed out the bots and the spammers but there was no interest, it seems. The offer still stands though......

[OldStrummer]

I'm with you, Sérgio. But I almost get the feeling the owners aren't receptive to those who inhabit this place. When the certificate issue arose (which is what started this downslide, I think) I attempted to contact the mods and admins about what I'd identified and how it could be easily remedied -- at no cost, even. I never heard a word back, and as far as I can tell, no action has been taken. Even a redheaded step-child gets noticed once in a while.

[S. Cane]

I'm with you, Sérgio. But I almost get the feeling the owners aren't receptive to those who inhabit this place. When the certificate issue arose (which is what started this downslide, I think) I attempted to contact the mods and admins about what I'd identified and how it could be easily remedied -- at no cost, even. I never heard a word back, and as far as I can tell, no action has been taken. Even a redheaded step-child gets noticed once in a while.

That's why I am suggesting we all make a petition (can be a thread with everyone posting) and showing it to the owners, stating our intentions of keeping the forum alive and asking them to let us sort out the troubles, either with our labor or donations... I think we could just ask them to have our backs here. No big deal to them but a relief for us.

Mike replied at the LPF and directly to me and to Coyotesgator, he was quite kind and frank, though he stated that they just don't have the time to maintain two forums just themselves.

[OldStrummer]

That's why I am suggesting we all make a petition (can be a thread with everyone posting) and showing it to the owners, stating our intentions of keeping the forum alive and asking them to let us sort out the troubles, either with our labor or donations... I think we could just ask them to have our backs here. No big deal to them but a relief for us.

Mike replied at the LPF and directly to me and to Coyotesgator, he was quite kind and frank, though he stated that they just don't have the time to maintain two forums just themselves.

Until I got to your last sentence, I felt like you were trying to p!ss up a rope. How in the world would you get the owners' attention with a petition if you couldn't get their attention any other way. But it appears you were able to roust them on LPF, even though I posted there about the certificate problem here as well.

So, it's a matter of labor? I know that most of us are in the western hemisphere, so that might make 24x7 moderation a bit of a chance, but you and others have already stated your willingness to step up to the plate. Maybe. We'll see...

[S. Cane]

I don't think it's a matter of moderation, pc and cogs do it very well here. I think it's a matter of administration, which is something a bit more complex.

Kenny did that and was quite enthusiastic about it until he started to appear tired and absent, which is only fair and normal. We all have our lives to live outside the internet. I just think we should tell Mike and the other owners that we do make a point in keeping this place.

Me, I wouldn't mind migrating to the LPF but some of you apparently won't do it and some others didn't enjoy a new place, then I guess we have no other option than asking the bosses to spare our forum and keep it running...

P.S. sometimes I wonder it all this is really necessary, if we should just stay here and nevermind the lack of certificate and all, but you see, as time goes by, an old forum will have more and more accessibility issues until we just won't be able to keep using it anymore. This outdated certificate has already made some of us stay away from it.



Anyway, I did my best to find a viable solution in order keep us all together, wherever we'd be. Some didn't like the other place, some just won't migrate and stated that they prefer no forum at all than slight adaptation... From this point, all I can do is sit and watch. Whatever you guys decide to do, I'll follow, but I will not keep on pushing anything...

[OldStrummer]

Sérgio, I applaud you for standing up and saying what others might have been thinking but did not want to come right out and say it.

In the past 25 years, I have run my own web site, mostly as a "sandbox" for web experimentation, and have thought about creating a forum on it. I use the same hosting service I've had since the 1980s, when it was a BBS! I pay about $160 a year, which covers everything (storage, email, updates, security, etc.). That's actually pretty expensive.

I was reading a web site article, How to Start a Forum Website in 3 Simple Steps (2021). There's a lot of good information there, as well as reviews of hosting services, forum software, and administrative needs. One of the articles reviews hosting services. One, A2 Hosting, supports vBulletin, which is the software powering TFF.

As a stretch, it would seem to me that if the owners no longer wish to maintain the site, it might be possible to take it over, acquire it, or migrate it. Of course, domain registration would need to transfer, as would DNS, but those are technical issues. Not difficult -- providing the current owners of the site are amenable. That's the part that continues to elude me, as I have no idea how to engage with them to discuss the future of TFF.