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Thread: Polish Town circa 1894

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    Polish Town circa 1894

    Can anybody read the name of this town from the image? I can't make it out and my geographical knowledge of Poland is terrible. If you can help me decipher it, I'd appreciate it.


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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    That may be tough. Towns in Poland have undergone numerous name changes as well as border lines due to the occupation by the Russians, the Germans, the Russians again...

    My father was born in the German town of Marienburg in 1925. After WWII, the Russians once again took over, and removed anything and everything that hinted at German. Thus, my father's birth town in now Malbork, Poland. If I go looking for Marienburg, I won't find it, as it no longer exists.
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by OldStrummer View Post
    That may be tough. Towns in Poland have undergone numerous name changes as well as border lines due to the occupation by the Russians, the Germans, the Russians again...

    My father was born in the German town of Marienburg in 1925. After WWII, the Russians once again took over, and removed anything and everything that hinted at German. Thus, my father's birth town in now Malbork, Poland. If I go looking for Marienburg, I won't find it, as it no longer exists.
    Yeah, I know. Poland is a country full of ghost cities/towns, name changes, and upheaval. The problem I have is deciphering names that don't seem to contain any vowels and the consonants don't look recognizable either.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Add in the possibility that an English speaker was filling in the form and the name of the town could be an anglicized version of the place name as the writer heard it spoken. The handwriting looks more Anglo and less Euro/Slavic.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Even more confusing: It looks like the town name is two words, as there are capital "G"s on both. What's stranger still, is that there is no translation in either Polish or Russian for "Gabe," which I take to be the second name, but the word means "Gift" in German. Yet the state given is Poland and Nation is Russia. According to Wikipedia, from 1795 - 1918, Poland was divided among Russia, Germany and Austria, and had no independent existence. That makes it even hard to find maps of the area from that time.
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdog View Post
    Add in the possibility that an English speaker was filling in the form and the name of the town could be an anglicized version of the place name as the writer heard it spoken. The handwriting looks more Anglo and less Euro/Slavic.
    I think you might be right since the words "Poland" and "Russia" are totally recognizable.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by OldStrummer View Post
    Even more confusing: It looks like the town name is two words, as there are capital "G"s on both. What's stranger still, is that there is no translation in either Polish or Russian for "Gabe," which I take to be the second name, but the word means "Gift" in German. Yet the state given is Poland and Nation is Russia. According to Wikipedia, from 1795 - 1918, Poland was divided among Russia, Germany and Austria, and had no independent existence. That makes it even hard to find maps of the area from that time.
    I was thinking both words, if they are separate words, started with a capital G, but now I'm wondering if they might be capital S's. I think they might be separate words since they both appear to begin with capital letters. This has all led me to realize that I need to go look at the entire document and start comparing the letters from words I know to the ones in the name of the town. That might actually solve this riddle.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by OldStrummer View Post
    Even more confusing: It looks like the town name is two words, as there are capital "G"s on both. What's stranger still, is that there is no translation in either Polish or Russian for "Gabe," which I take to be the second name, but the word means "Gift" in German. Yet the state given is Poland and Nation is Russia. According to Wikipedia, from 1795 - 1918, Poland was divided among Russia, Germany and Austria, and had no independent existence. That makes it even hard to find maps of the area from that time.

    I interpreted that as Grno Gobe. A quick look through Russian, German and Polish dictionaries didn’t turn up anything definitive. Was hoping that Gobe would translate into something like village, town, hamlet or something. And Grno doesn’t pop up as anything clear either either - as a common or proper noun. So now thinking that the those first letters are not “G”. Yes, comparing that cursive to other known-good parts of the document would help for sure! I love a good mystery!

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by Toast View Post
    I think you might be right since the words "Poland" and "Russia" are totally recognizable.
    Agreed.

    "Poland" is English. Польша is Russian, Polska is Polish, and Polen is German.
    "Russia" is English. Россия is Russian, Rosja is Polish, and Russland is German.
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    I examined the original document, a WWI draft card, and it wasn't any help. I can read the other words in it with no problems, but that town name is just a mystery. I didn't find any letter similarities. Anyway, I'm going to try some other avenues. I'll let you know if I get something definitive. Thanks all.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Toast, I tried a little sleuthing and came up with nothing. Poland like a lot of countries in Europe at that time had so many villages, some with local names that had a different name altogether. I tried all kinds of possibilities, but the characters are kicking my ass.

    If I were you, I'd try to locate a university historian who specializes in Eastern Europe. If they can't help you, they might lead you to someone who could. Try searches for professors who teach about Poland or who teach the language, professors of the WWII / Russian era of Eastern Europe. You might have a lot of fun getting to the answers.
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by ch willie View Post
    Toast, I tried a little sleuthing and came up with nothing. Poland like a lot of countries in Europe at that time had so many villages, some with local names that had a different name altogether. I tried all kinds of possibilities, but the characters are kicking my ass.

    If I were you, I'd try to locate a university historian who specializes in Eastern Europe. If they can't help you, they might lead you to someone who could. Try searches for professors who teach about Poland or who teach the language, professors of the WWII / Russian era of Eastern Europe. You might have a lot of fun getting to the answers.
    Yeah, I thought about sending it to the Polish embassy or something, but I haven't thrown in the towel yet. I'm thinking the town could just as easily be in Russia. That might mean that the weird cursive letter is some cursive Cyrillic letter. I dunno maybe. I can speak and read German, but my Cyrillic is non-existent. I'm going to look at the cursive Cyrillic alphabet and see what I can find. On it goes.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by Toast View Post
    Yeah, I thought about sending it to the Polish embassy or something, but I haven't thrown in the towel yet. I'm thinking the town could just as easily be in Russia. That might mean that the weird cursive letter is some cursive Cyrillic letter. I dunno maybe. I can speak and read German, but my Cyrillic is non-existent. I'm going to look at the cursive Cyrillic alphabet and see what I can find. On it goes.
    It's not Cyrillic. I don't think you'd have much luck at an embassy unless you lucked up phenomenally. Scholars study this stuff, but embassy workers are likely to have bachelor's degrees and don't really have the kind of expertise you're looking for.

    Seriously, if you really want to find out, you need to find a historian. And further, I was just thinking about it: most professors you'd meet in Europe can speak English fluently. Rather than contacting an American here, you'd be able to get what you're looking for from historians who are actually in Poland.

    Sorry, I'm a real nerd (English prof for 30 years). This is the kind of thing I get excited about. I've just read a couple of Günter Grass novels; he was from Danzig (German name) / G'dansk (Polish name), and the novels take place there.

    Wikipedia: The city's history is complex, with periods of Polish, Prussian and German rule, and periods of autonomy or self-rule as a free city state.

    This what OS was talking about. With control of the country, the Prussians and Germans changed the city name. See--nerd nerd nerd.
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    A further complication:

    I know of examples in rural Tennessee where within even in a small town with a pop. of 750, citizens have different names for different areas.

    Our swimming hole ran through the woods and fields. Some folks called the area Forrest Carter's. Other's called it Ford's Creek. We all knew what was meant. I used Forrest.. and others used Pete's.... No one in the county see 18 miles away would have known that both terms refer to the same area.

    So there might be several names for the place, and perhaps the one used was only a local name for the place, one that was not official and which was known only by a small group of folks.
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    The handwritten initial is hard to tell but the word reminds me of Brno. That's a Polish city.

    P.S. that sure isn't cyrillic.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Are you sure about Brno? It's a Czech city but close to Krakow. Unless you're referring to some smaller town in Poland. Or did Poland occupy Brno for a considerable time?
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by ch willie View Post
    Are you sure about Brno? It's a Czech city but close to Krakow. Unless you're referring to some smaller town in Poland. Or did Poland occupy Brno for a considerable time?

    You are right and I stand corrected. It is indeed Czech, not Polish, I might have mistaken it for Polish because of the German annexation in WWII, with th rest of Moravia and Poland.

    The handwritten word does look like Brno, though.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    I still think you're right that the word is Brno. The Bosse afterwards or whatever the word is might indicate that it's a polish village, like a New London or something. In a diff but somewhat related way. Memphis is of course in Tennessee, but across the Mississippi River, in Arkansas, is West Memphis, Arkansas.

    This is pure speculation--I hope we'll find out the answer because it's so much fun to see where we were going in the right direction and maybe more interestingly, where our logic is off.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Toast, if you give us more details we might be of better service. What is this about?

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by ch willie View Post
    A further complication:

    I know of examples in rural Tennessee where within even in a small town with a pop. of 750, citizens have different names for different areas.

    Our swimming hole ran through the woods and fields. Some folks called the area Forrest Carter's. Other's called it Ford's Creek. We all knew what was meant. I used Forrest.. and others used Pete's.... No one in the county see 18 miles away would have known that both terms refer to the same area.

    So there might be several names for the place, and perhaps the one used was only a local name for the place, one that was not official and which was known only by a small group of folks.
    Yeah, I'll send it off to somebody with linguistic expertise at some point. Lately I've been so exhausted that I haven't had the energy to word the email :-).

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by Sérgio View Post
    Toast, if you give us more details we might be of better service. What is this about?
    It's family tree research. My great great grandfather diddled my great great grandmother, had a child, left, and disappeared into the ether. The town he emigrated from in Poland/Russia to the US is the one you see. I'd post more of the doc, but I don't want to doxx myself. The rest of the document really isn't helpful anyway; it's a small card without a lot of writing.
    Last edited by Toast; 11-02-2020 at 11:53 PM.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by Toast View Post
    It's family tree research. My great great grandfather diddled my great great grandmother, had a child, left, and disappeared into the ether. The town he emigrated from in Poland/Russia to the US is the one you see. I'd post more of the doc, but I don't want to doxx myself. The rest of the document really isn't helpful anyway; it's a small card without a lot of writing.
    Is there any kind of official's stamp like a passport or citizen stamp? In Europe, it's still practice to have a resident ID. When you move too a new town, you are bound by law to report your move to city govt. You get a stamp on a document about the size of a large postcard.

    I've contacted a former student of mine in Germany, a teacher who might know a historian or sociologist who can point us somewhere. I can't let this go now.

    Toast, before you start a thread like this, you need to figure out whether there are any super nerds on the forum. See what's happened--you've attracted my attention, ME, Public Nerd #1. I'm the ground zero of investigators.
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Two notes, which have already been raised. They will likely not help, except in narrowing the search:

    1) The document is written in English. This means there's little value in searching European sources.
    2) Because it's written in English, the town name may be Anglicized from its original (ie., in English, the capital of the German state of Bavaria is called "Munich." In German, the state capital is Bayern, and the city is München). If searching a map, it makes sense to use one written in English...
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by OldStrummer View Post
    Two notes, which have already been raised. They will likely not help, except in narrowing the search:

    1) The document is written in English. This means there's little value in searching European sources.
    2) Because it's written in English, the town name may be Anglicized from its original (ie., in English, the capital of the German state of Bavaria is called "Munich." In German, the state capital is Bayern, and the city is München). If searching a map, it makes sense to use one written in English...

    You're right. The thing was so obvious that I missed it. How stupid!!!!!

    So Toast, where did you get this thing?
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Willie, you're a language/linguistics person. I'm a tech/computer person. We evidently approach the same thing from different angles.
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by OldStrummer View Post
    Willie, you're a language/linguistics person. I'm a tech/computer person. We evidently approach the same thing from different angles.
    Ha ha. Thanks for helping me to wipe a little of that egg of my face. And if Toast is just hosing us, I'll have to get the dozen-size face wipe.

    I was so concentrated on the name of the city. I am not Sherlock Holmes, more like his special brother.

    I have passed it on to a German scholar who's going to send it to a knowledgeable guy.
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Sorry folks, I've been incredibly busy as of late so I haven't had time to pursue this much. There's another family member doing all the work on it anyway so I've sort of been waiting for them to find the answer. So far though, nada. Anyway, the document is a WWI draft card, but I found it through Ancestry.com. Pretty much any public document with genealogical importance (yearbooks, passenger lists, etc.) can be found on that site if it has bearing on your research. Anyway, if anything comes up, I'll keep you all informed.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Gotcha. Knowing it's a draft card makes a big diff. I was thinking he might have been a soldier in the Polish or Russiain armies. An American soldier--I wonder if you could get military records.
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by ch willie View Post
    Gotcha. Knowing it's a draft card makes a big diff. I was thinking he might have been a soldier in the Polish or Russiain armies. An American soldier--I wonder if you could get military records.
    We probably could get military records, but we're not sure this dude is even the one we're related to. We have a few candidates with the same name and they're all kind of question marks. In other words, they're kind of dead ends genealogically speaking. I'm not even sure this guy served in the military. Anyway, I was hoping somebody would recognize the town name right off the bat, but I'm thinking we're better off focusing on areas we can find more info on. I'm also starting to think this was a situation where somebody asked what town the person standing in front of them was born in and heard, "Grklem Grok," and then just fudged it on the form not bothering with accuracy. It's sort of like when a lead singer forgets the lyrics and just mouths gibberish filler sounds. So it goes . . .
    Last edited by Toast; 11-06-2020 at 12:54 PM.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by Toast View Post
    We probably could get military records, but we're not sure this dude is even the one we're related to. We have a few candidates with the same name and they're all kind of question marks. In other words, they're kind of dead ends genealogically speaking. I'm not even sure this guy served in the military. Anyway, I was hoping somebody would recognize the town name right off the bat, but I'm thinking we're better off focusing on areas we can find more info on. I'm also starting to think this was a situation where somebody asked what town the person standing in front of them was born in and heard, "Grklem Grok," and then just fudged it on the form not bothering with accuracy. It's sort of like when a lead singer forgets the lyrics and just mouths gibberish filler sounds. So it goes . . .
    That's the most likely scenario - happened a couple of different times with my ancestors when they immigrated here. Some faceless bureaucrat thought: "ah, well, close enough". My father did a lot of family genealogy work in the twenty years before he died. He tromped around lots of graveyards and county records repositories. He found a lot of bastardized spellings along the way. Cool thing is that he found our ancestral home (in Scotland) and thats where I placed his ashes after he passed. It was a lot of work since we've been in Canada for seven generations (and spread across three provinces) with a generation in Rhode Island before that.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    One of my wife's grandpaws was a German immigrant, (Ellis Island and all). They screwed up his name, but he fixed it. One of her cousins found the actual listing where the name was butchered. He was an educated man, so it wasn't hard for him to get things straightened out after he was in the country.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdog View Post
    That's the most likely scenario - happened a couple of different times with my ancestors when they immigrated here. Some faceless bureaucrat thought: "ah, well, close enough". My father did a lot of family genealogy work in the twenty years before he died. He tromped around lots of graveyards and county records repositories. He found a lot of bastardized spellings along the way. Cool thing is that he found our ancestral home (in Scotland) and thats where I placed his ashes after he passed. It was a lot of work since we've been in Canada for seven generations (and spread across three provinces) with a generation in Rhode Island before that.
    I suspect it's probably taken those bureaucrats a hundred years to evolve and have clerks print words instead of collecting data in cursive writing. You'd think medieval scribes would have passed that nugget of wisdom down to bureaucrats centuries ago. Nope. My pharmacist had to call the doctor to have them decode a prescription not too long ago.
    Last edited by Toast; 11-08-2020 at 07:53 PM.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Well, I finally got the answer to this one. The name of the town, discovered on a WWII draft card, is Grodno. Grodno, Poland. It turned out that my great grandfather changed his name multiple times during his life, remarried a couple of times, and moved around a lot. Maybe he was a traveling musician. So there you have it.

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by Toast View Post
    Well, I finally got the answer to this one. The name of the town, discovered on a WWII draft card, is Grodno. Grodno, Poland. It turned out that my great grandfather changed his name multiple times during his life, remarried a couple of times, and moved around a lot. Maybe he was a traveling musician. So there you have it.
    Glad you solved the mystery.

    The place has a vurrrry interesting history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grodno
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    I'm glad you found your answer. I'm still confused as to how a simple name like Grodno could be listed as two words, but since you now have your answer, it doesn't matter.
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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by Toast View Post
    Well, I finally got the answer to this one. The name of the town, discovered on a WWII draft card, is Grodno. Grodno, Poland. It turned out that my great grandfather changed his name multiple times during his life, remarried a couple of times, and moved around a lot. Maybe he was a traveling musician. So there you have it.
    Excellent! How did you finally arrive at the answer?

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    Re: Polish Town circa 1894

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdog View Post
    Excellent! How did you finally arrive at the answer?
    Thanks everybody for the help. My internet connection is spotty so I can't really reply to each individual post without losing a connection. I'm just going to cherrypick my replies for the sake of saving my knuckles from being punched into my monitor from another disconnect. When I spoke to my relative doing the research, he said he was finally able to crack the mystery by examining documents tangential to my great great grandfather. I think he said he found a name change in a document that was related to the daughter (not my GG grandfather's daughter) of my GG grandmother who had another child with a different husband. Something like that. Anyway the lesson was that if you lose track with one person, then check the docs of the satellite people in the family. You might find something there. In a nutshell, he discovered that both my GG grandmother and GG grandfather changed their names after their divorce. Those different names led to other name change discoveries. That led him to check census records on the other names and he found the town in a census record of my GG grandfather's older name. I think he changed his name like 3 times so there were records under all those names, PITA, but worth the effort
    Last edited by Toast; 11-16-2020 at 09:42 PM.

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