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Thread: Virtues of Vintage Amps

  1. #1
    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Virtues of Vintage Amps

    I'll probably never own a vintage amp of any kind.

    But I am curious.

    Without sparking a discussion of whether today's amps are worth a shit, what are the virtues of a vintage amp?

    Of course I already know a bit, but a lot of you know amps so well, and I'd appreciate hearing from each of you.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    I don't have an answer to your question, Willie. I'm not even sure what qualifies as "vintage." In my garage sits a Pignose 150 Crossmix 150R 2x10 that I bought somewhere around 1980. I've thought about taking it into the house and cleaning it up (every time I see it, it looks to be in pretty good condition). I've read it was designed by Paul Rivera, a name that means nothing to me, but seems to ring a bell with amp aficionados.

    Not my photo, but this is representative:


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  3. #3
    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    Zappa used to record with a small Pignose, and a lot used them in the 70s, so they have made their mark in rock music.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by ch willie View Post
    Zappa used to record with a small Pignose, and a lot used them in the 70s, so they have made their mark in rock music.
    I still own my very first amp - a Pignose 7-100, which many now claim made its own mark on amp history. I remember carrying it on a strap, crossed over my chest like a bandolier with my guitar (my ES-225) as I walked my dogs. I'd play and occasionally command my dogs (German Shepherds, voice trained!). I also remember sitting in a darkened room on Halloween playing feedback and all sorts of weirdness as kids passed by on their way trick-or-treating.

    I have multiple amps now, some of them as small (or smaller), but the Pignose holds a special place in my heart.

    Striving to be ordinary

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    I wanted one of those so much when I was a kid, but didn't have a dime.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member vinyl's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    I think it might a combination of things. I'll only offer an opinion on Fender amps.

    1. Sound. But that means different things. A tweed amp has a different sound than a brownface amp. A brownface amp has a different sound than a blackface amp. A blackface amp has a different sound than a later silverface amp. Early silverface amps were only cosmetically different from blackface amps, but as time progressed they changed.
    How did they change? During the late 60's there was a "loudness" war. The way Fender initially dealt with that was to increase the bass response of their amps so they would seem "louder" in a showroom.


    2. Technology. If you look at most schematics, high voltage electrolytic capacitors were either not available above 16 uF or Leo didn't want to use them because of cost in the 50's. What does that mean? More "sag".
    In 1968, 5U4GB rectifiers became available. Capable of supplying 25mA more of current. Cheaper than a GZ34. But had a larger voltage drop.

    3.Production. As demand grew, Fender made higher demands on their suppliers. The best example of this I can think of is Jensen speakers. Since Fender was attempting to order larger numbers of speakers they wanted a better price point. Jensen wanted the same or more money to ramp up production. The same for the famous Ajax "blue capacitors".
    They rarely fail and now seem to bring $25.00 a piece on Ebay.
    Throw into this mix not only Leo, but CBS bean counters who were always looking to lower costs. Later on, cabinets changed from finger jointed solid pine with detachable speaker baffles. If you wanted to change to a different speaker(s) it was possible. Later they changed to lap jointed cabinets with glued in particle board speaker baffles. Accidently drop one a few times and see what happens.


    4. Durability. See above.
    Early Fender amps were easily repairable on the road if they had some kind of failure. In 1965, while Leo was still employed by CBS, the first "bias balance" circuit was introduced. Need to replace power tubes? No problem, just plug them in, and adjust for minimum hum.
    Then they came up with the solid state line in the late 60's, and they were a huge failure, because they were not reliable, and practically impossible to repair on the road. Fender's response was to take the same circuit boards, stuff them into a different cabinet and rechristen them "the Zodiac amps".

    Lastly I'll say this. In 1961, a princeton cost $149.00. In todays money, that amounts to $1284.87. There are other sites that say less. When you could still buy one, a Chris Schiflet Fender "signature" amp was essentailly 2 grand. That amounts to 715 bucks for a 12 inch speaker, and push on spade connectors, crimped connections for spade connectors on wires, and lead free solder connections.

    I'm lucky enough to own a 1961 princeton and a 1969 Bandmaster reverb because I traded a Chicago Pneumatic 3/8" air wrench back in the 70's for the 61 princeton and bought the 69 Bandmaster Reverb new and never managed to sell them.

    I don't have the "talent" to own them. They sat in my garage for over 30 years before I did anything with them. But I'm glad that I don't have to spend the money to own them or some "boutique" amp now.

    Just my opinion.

    Phantomman was a great help to me restoring the 61 princeton.

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    vinyl, thanks so much. That was incredibly informative. I appreciate the time you took to lay it out for me. Interesting stuff. I knew a bit about going to cheaper materials and wiring and so forth. But this is the real soup. Thanks.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member vinyl's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    As I said before, it's only my opinion. I would never claim that it's the real soup. Besides, we need something for OS to read while he is quarantined.

    Anyone feel free to disagree. I promise I won't be offended.

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    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by vinyl View Post
    As I said before, it's only my opinion. I would never claim that it's the real soup. Besides, we need something for OS to read while he is quarantined.

    Anyone feel free to disagree. I promise I won't be offended.


    I agree with everything you said.

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    I've had several vintage amps and have a couple left. I've had my '66 Vibrolux Reverb since 1990. It's an awesome amp. The differences between modern production amps and vintage amps are pretty obvious. The differences between a good handmade modern amp and a vintage amp are a lot more subtle and there are more choices now than ever. I've got some incredible amps that I've bought or built. Still, there seems to be just a little "magic" in old amps like my VR (speakers? transformers? capacitors? snake oil?), though I haven't tried really high end boutique amps to see if they're equal or better.

    BTW, not all vintage amps are great.

  11. #11
    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    I've had several vintage amps and have a couple left. I've had my '66 Vibrolux Reverb since 1990. It's an awesome amp. The differences between modern production amps and vintage amps are pretty obvious. The differences between a good handmade modern amp and a vintage amp are a lot more subtle and there are more choices now than ever. I've got some incredible amps that I've bought or built. Still, there seems to be just a little "magic" in old amps like my VR (speakers? transformers? capacitors? snake oil?), though I haven't tried really high end boutique amps to see if they're equal or better.

    BTW, not all vintage amps are great.
    Oh yeah, there have to be some stinkers no matter how well made they are.

    I've been thinking about getting something vintage if I can afford it in a few months. I'm afraid to buy anything though because of my lack of knowledge. However, I'm a quick learner, and I'm going to read up on it.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post

    BTW, not all vintage amps are great.
    Yes. And the same can be said about pre-CBS (or Norlin) guitars.

    There's also a lot of confusion about what modern gear is and what it should be put side to side with.

    If you pick up a modern amp, say, a Blues Jr or a Hot Rod, you should expect them to sound like what they are: modern amps. They are not made to sound like a 50s Tweed or Blackface amp. They were designed in the 90s to fit in a certain niche of the music market, and many artists worldwide use those amps and like them the way they are. It is indeed arguable that their construction isn't as easily repairable or efficient tonewise, and that they don't have several of the virtues of older vintage models, but they were never meant to be the same as those, to begin with.

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    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    I haven't had the chance to play a modern take on a 5F1 tweed champ, just my '62 narrow panel that sounded amazing until the day I went to sell it. Freaking hunk of shite took a dump on me right in front of my prospective buyer, LOL.

    That said, I would like to have had heard it through a proper 12" speaker, or even a 10" speaker. Would it still retain the same magic? I don't know.

    I had a '73/'74 Princeton Reverb that I bought new and kept for 32 years. That amp was tortured within an inch of its life. In the '80s, it was beginning to make the frying bacon sounds. I happened to live in Newmarket and there was a skilled amp tech in Dover. It cost like 125 dollars (I had only paid 205 for it new) but OMG, what a difference. Totally worth it. Wish I still had it.

    I have a '69 Princeton (non-reverb). I spent some money getting it checked out and biased correctly, and put some good glass in it. It sounds great now. I bought a PRRI (2019)with the 15 watt circuit and a 12" speaker. I'm very impressed with this, even though it is not a handwired boutique.

    I think the virtues of vintage amps depends on what your expectations are. When they were first coming out, it was guitar>cord>amp and maybe a reverb unit. Maybe. Now people want effects loops, master volumes, power scaling, built in effects, DI outputs, attenuators etc. Vintage amps really don't have a large role for a majority of players anymore.
    "Live and learn and flip the burns"

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    I came up playing during the 70s, during that era of Fender, and most of the musos I knew had new Twins or Peaveys or whatever. I've never played in a band with anyone who had 60s era gear. So except for concerts, I've never heard anyone play any amp that would be considered "vintage".

    So I have no idea whether I'd ever consider getting an old Fender, for example. I like to think that I'd get an old Bassman like Keef's.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by ch willie View Post
    I came up playing during the 70s, during that era of Fender, and most of the musos I knew had new Twins or Peaveys or whatever. I've never played in a band with anyone who had 60s era gear. So except for concerts, I've never heard anyone play any amp that would be considered "vintage".

    So I have no idea whether I'd ever consider getting an old Fender, for example. I like to think that I'd get an old Bassman like Keef's.
    I picked the guitar back up in 1979 and was steered away from modern Fender, Gibson and Martin gear. The guy I took lessons from was really into pre CBS Fenders and "golden era" Gibsons. I ended up with a 1981 Fender Concert 4-10 amp anyway. It was a good amp, but didn't really get the sound that I wanted so I replaced that with a 1966 Vibrolux Reverb (that I still have) a few years later. I was never able to afford anything that was pre CBS Fender, and wasn't really aware of tweed amps at that time. Now, with all the great amp builders and the ability to roll my own, I don't have the need.

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    Forum Member Keefoman1's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    So what's the definition of a "vintage" amp?
    I don't own one as far as I'm concerned, but as for Fender amps, I've owned and played a few. My current beeing a '69 Super Reverb modded to a Blackface curcuit by a professional. That particular amp sounds really great, and I think a part of it's sound is due to the original CTS Alnico speakers. Some years ago, I had a Hot Rod Deluxe with the extra speaker cabinet, but it didn't give me the total satisfaction that the SR does, though it sounded very good. I've also played Twin Reverbs that I absolutely don't get along with, and other Fender amps that don't cut it for me.

    I also own a clone of a Marshall JTM45 '66 made by Ceriatone with some modded parts done by the guy who put it together. Paired with an open 2x12 cabinet with Celestion Greenbacks that one also sounds great!

    When I do gigs that require sounds that's more "gainy", I have an '83 Marshall JCM 800 2205 that goes into an '87 Marshall Silver Jubilee 4x12 cab with Celestion V30s.

    I wouldn't classify any of these as vintage, but they are old (ish), and I've went through lots of different amps (and guitars) to find what I have been looking for. My pedalboard has also developed through many years, and the current setup has been unchanged for some years. The pedalboard also works great for all my gigging amps.

    For home use, I've got a Boss Katana 50 and Guitar Rig software on my computers. Both great value for the money, and more than sufficient for practice.

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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    I own one "vintage" amp that I bought used in 1968, an Airline 5 watt with trem and reverb. I carried it all over the Pacific, and returning home, my wife learned to play bass through it. (Blew the Jensen, and replaced it with an Oxford from a friend's Twin).
    Later years, I remembered it, and refurbed it, and recovered it, asked Ted Weber for a recommended speaker, it now has a 12A125A. One plays it dimmed, just use the volume on the guitar to make it "sing"!

  18. #18
    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Moore View Post
    I own one "vintage" amp that I bought used in 1968, an Airline 5 watt with trem and reverb. I carried it all over the Pacific, and returning home, my wife learned to play bass through it. (Blew the Jensen, and replaced it with an Oxford from a friend's Twin).
    Later years, I remembered it, and refurbed it, and recovered it, asked Ted Weber for a recommended speaker, it now has a 12A125A. One plays it dimmed, just use the volume on the guitar to make it "sing"!
    Bill, am I right in thinking that your main amps are the ones you've built yourself?

    I mean hats off to you and the other guys who can do it. I'm an expert in my field. I can hold my own with the best of them when it comes to issues of literature or writing. But I envy the knowledge and skill of hand that it takes to build amplifiers or to repair them. I read what you guys write, and I learn things, but other things go over my head. I have so many other things to learn and take care of that I'll never have the time or inclination to learn. Just wanted to express my admiration for what you guys can do.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    ch willie, I have built several that I could never afford to buy, but I'm not a tech by any means. I can follow diagrams, and I read from folks who know, (on several forums), to get insight on any mods I might want to the original design.
    There used to be several builders that shared their knowledge on the forum! (NTBluesguitarGuitar for one). Unfortunately we lost Cygnus X1!

  20. #20
    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    I was thinking of Cygnus the other day. I thought he was the greatest. Such a nice man--at least to me and the others I saw him interact with.

    I forgot what the series was, but he would post something that he called "....(I forget the word he used) thoughts" There were sometimes funny issues and sometimes interesting things.

    I really miss him.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    Yeah, "odd thought # ).

  22. #22
    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Virtues of Vintage Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Moore View Post
    Yeah, "odd thought # ).
    That's what it was.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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