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Thread: Time for an Upgrade?

  1. #1
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Time for an Upgrade?

    This place is really showing it's age technology-wise. What are the obstacles to upgrading to software that is more modern? Money? Pffft. That's easy. Maybe people just like the retro feel?

    I think this is good forum but would be better with an infusion of "new".

    Ideas?

    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  2. #2
    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    Do you have an example of a forum with better technology? I'm all for a change if it improves features. Don't know if it's possible, but wouldn't it be great to upload photos straight from a device?

    I visit fora that have been around a long time, so I don't know what is out there. These "old" fora have software similar to ours.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

  3. #3
    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    Chuck, what features do you think the forum is missing? Is it a UI thing, or do you think there are limitations? It's hard to envision an upgrade when that term is vague and uncertain.

    I've seen a few forums recently go to new software, and my feeling (shared with others) is that the "new" look is sterile and cookie-cutter. I'd hate to lose the sense of community and history that's been built up here over time.

    And, given that there are no ads and no subscription fees, it's pretty obvious this is a privately funded site. Some improvements could come at a cost that the current model can't sustain.
    Striving to be ordinary

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  4. #4
    TFF Stage Crew
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    Traditionally, TFF has resisted the urge to turn the site into more of a Facebook (like buttons, PMs) or Reddit (upvotes, downvotes) place. I'm not a traditionalist, really, so I don't "need" to see TFF stay the way it was when I joined up, but I'm totally content with the way it looks and feels now.

    More than anything, it's important to understand that Ken F. rescued TFF from the delete bin, and he operates the site entirely on his own dime and with his own free time. Cogs and I are still moderators, but, except for one tiny blip a few weeks ago, we don't have to do much at all. Everyone here sort of automatically knows to act like adults whose default mode is to get along with each other, while we bond over our shared enjoyments. In my opinion, adding things seen in more modern or social-media based sites invites nothing but reasons for hurt feelings and clique-behavior, which I feel would be a step backwards.

    I'm forever grateful that Ken did what he did to save TFF, and that he continues to maintain the site for us all to enjoy. I don't feel I need a single thing changed or improved here to add more enjoyment than I already get each day.

  5. #5
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    I am not sure about how I feel.

    If a software update helps bringing in new blood and powering up the place, by all means... I'd like that.

    However, the "old" style of the forum is indeed one of the little details that make me feel so good here. I like that it is one of the older guitar forums, I mean the ones from the late 90s-early 2000s, and still kinda looks that way. I miss the old Guns & Ammo forum, for instance.

    BTW, if the forum ever needs help to be kept alive, be it more hands on deck or extra dimes thrown in the well, count me in.

  6. #6
    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    I wouldn't want Ken to take on another ounce of duties. I am very grateful to him for what he has done for all of us.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

  7. #7
    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    I definitely appreciate the ads-free aspect, I've had other fora that have become veritable gauntlets of ads to the extent they were crashing my browser (Safari, so it's not like I'm tottering along the brink of extinction here). If new blood can't be enticed to come for lack of like buttons or up/down voting, I don't think we're missing a whole lot.

    I thank Ken for what he's done here. And if a dime is needed let us know.
    "Live and learn and flip the burns"

  8. #8
    Forum Member gibsonjunkie's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    "Let's talk Guild" recently upgraded and it has a really nice look and you can upload and store pics. It took them a while to upgrade and configure - not a simple task, and time consuming. On the other hand, while there is a lot of camaraderie there, I still feel like an outsider there - not like here.

    I can easily live with what we've got but if a collection took place to do an upgrade, I could find a few bucks to help contribute.
    "We catched fish and talked, and we took a swim now and then to keep off sleepiness." Mark Twain

  9. #9
    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    Storing pictures co$ts a lot of money. Another site I belong to has been having similar user "suggestions." Like TFF, it's a private forum, NOT FOR SALE according to the owner, and costs nothing to subscribers. This means server hosting costs, storage, domain registration, software maintenance and general upkeep falls squarely on the shoulders of the owner.

    Storing text messages doesn't use up the same amount of disk space as photos. And some photos are YUGE. I work in the identity management field, and I tell trainees that a single identity accounts for approximately 1Kb (approximately 1,000 characters). A million identities consumes roughly 1Gb. Now, if you add a 4Kb photo (extremely small--some forums use this size for avatars) you've just increased the storage need fivefold. Just imagine everyone uploaded those delicious 500Kb guitar photos, and you get the idea...

    These are the considerations board owners face. I have a domain that runs a very small site (I don't promote it and don't invite people to it). I pay $162 annually for hosting, backups, security certificates, domain registration, and so on. I can only imagine what Kenny pays.

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  10. #10
    Forum Member vinyl's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    I totally agree with OS. (See how a "like" or up vote or down vote button works?) I simply had to type 24 characters. Admittedly there's a whole lot of other characters to follow.

    I admit I'm a bit of a curmudgeon, I don't need a "like" button, or a "upvote" or "downvote" button. If I like a post it's not that hard to post a reply. Admittedly, I'm still working on how to respectfully disagree with a post I don't like.

    That being said, here's what I think. Is forum technology retro? Yeah, it's not like Facebook, or or other social media sites, but if you have a question about something can you do a search for answers that may have been answered 18 years ago without simply asking the same question over and over. I don't think social media sites offer that, nor am I interested in "registering" just to view a post, which I have to do just to see a post on Facebook, or Instagram. When I was working, I saw a lot of people loose their jobs because of something they posted on Facebook, even though they thought what they posted was "private".

    Uploading pictures? I don't think it's fair to Ken F. to host pictures on his server(s) that may have copyrights. Let alone the extra bandwith that that entails. These days of litigious times, would you care to try to defend a lawsuit over hosting copyrighted content?
    It's not just software, he's paying for bandwidth and data.

    What do I like about here? There are no ratings based on how many posts you have made. Besides the moderators, everyone here is a "forum member". Even shit like that encourages people to make useless posts. No adds. Short registration times. Software that doesn't bring my 12 year old laptop to its knees like photobucket, or other sites.

    Bottom line, I'm happy with the way the forum is now. Granted, I'd like to see more posts and members who post regularly here, but in this day and age, we're going to see a lot of "one post wonders" who come here and either getting an answer to their question (no thanks posted), or questions that seem so stupid they don't get an answer at all. When I was first starting to play 55 years ago, I had little places to go to find answers to my questions, other than books, or wearing out records trying to figure something out or learn to play a song I was interested in.

    The internet is a double edged sword, there is useful info and useless info available. I'd rather see this forum be a place for useful info. If that requires money, I'd be more than happy to contribute.

    As usual, this is simply my opinion, shaped mostly by my age. Would you rather go back to the days of Bulletin boards and dial-up modems?

  11. #11
    Forum Member dirtdog's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    A couple of other forums I'm on use Xenforo. From a UI/UX perspective, it's good. From an admin/backend perspective, I have no idea. Same for an economic perspective. Probably need a huge user base, where some pay and with some ad revenue to support uploading of pictures. Cloud storage at the forum scale isn't free, but also isn't unaffordable - assuming there's enough revenue to make it worthwhile.

    vBulletin 4 was released in 2010 and vBulletin in 5 in 2012. Since TFF is at vBulletin v.4.2.4, we're at least 8-9 years out of date in terms of look/feel/functionality here compared to other more modern releases. But the ability to upload and store pictures on this site is not a vBulletin versioning issue, IMO.

    I would image with only a few dozen active users and a very small amount of traffic, TFF doesn't have enough economy of scale to justify enabling uploads.

    The way I look at it, TFF is what it is and has been living on borrowed time for a while. I'd post more pics here if I could but it's not the end of the world.

    And thanks Kenny for keeping TFF alive all this time, despite UI/UX shortcomings. I think the preservation of 20 years of data is more important than a "like" button.

  12. #12
    Forum Member dirtdog's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    Quote Originally Posted by vinyl View Post
    . Would you rather go back to the days of Bulletin boards and dial-up modems?
    Oh, that was such a naive and magical time!

    I remember around 1987, I was running a warehouse and we had a computerized inventory management system. At lunch, I'd unhook the modem from the mothership and dial up my buddy's BBS and play some sort of text-based fantasy role playing game. I thought I was SO clever!

  13. #13
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdog View Post
    Oh, that was such a naive and magical time!

    I remember around 1987, I was running a warehouse and we had a computerized inventory management system. At lunch, I'd unhook the modem from the mothership and dial up my buddy's BBS and play some sort of text-based fantasy role playing game. I thought I was SO clever!

    Great times when the internet was just a tool to connect computers. Now it's everywhere, in phones, cars, all kinds of gear and it just won't leave you alone.

  14. #14
    Forum Member FrankJohnson's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    I was just starting to play when I signed on here in 2004 or so. I lurked for a while, and then just sort of chimed in. I was a different climate them. Doc540 - bluelou, and a BUNCH of great people like we have now, and many that are here now.....still. PC was here through all of that, Nick put me up at his house for a visit and we got together with telebob, miles, Franklin and a bunch of others . There were long discussions about parts, equipment, playing out, fixing stuff, troubleshooting, maple vs. rosewood and other controversial stuff that got people banned. Most came back some never did. We made friends, some spoke on the phone, did favors, and bought - sold and traded stuff too. What a bunch of Dumbasses.

    At the end of the day we knew way to much about some people that mostly never met, but became friends. PC took over as moderator, and the atmosphere improved tremendously. Although I never met Lilly, She was the heart of this place and we lost her. Then the site was in turmoil, beginning to circle the drain, and in stepped Kenny with his cape flowing in the wind behind him, and saved the site. I Know this is missing a lot of detail, but is pretty close to "in order".

    Guys like Roger and PC and some of the genuine fender Brain trust guys who know stuff were a godsend. Please forgive me - my memory is honestly giving me real issues, and I can't even though I try.....remember many names these days. there was so much historic knowledge here.

    One of my goals was to learn to play some, and play out. I Had a chance to learn some from local guys and did a short run playing for David Bromberg at a blues jam for about 3 years, as his house bass guy. What an honor, and opportunity. I had a chance to put my own band together and have had it for about 13 years now. I had a chance to learn to run sound, worked at a venue and got to work with quite a few fairly well known acts. I exceeded my wanting to play out by a smidge and still need to learn so much more about how to actually do some of this stuff right, instead of "how I do it".

    I say all that to say this.......
    I OWE a lot of what I learned, and how I learned to do it to this forum, with the outdated software, and old technology. I appreciate the effort that went into the inception of the site to begin with, and the fact that it was resuscitated by Dr. Kenny F. I appreciate what we have, and hope that it stays. I wouldn't mind if a few upgrades came, like photo hosting abilities, and the occasional inappropriate photot that doesn't get yanked (that would be the sland). We even talked about guns. I think that got taken out - I don't understand but.....ok.

    everyone has their own reasons for being in a forum. These are/were some of mine. My discussions seem to be thread killers.....I sort of quit posting much when I noticed that when I commented on something, that was usually the end of the discussion. Most of the stuff I post about live shows gets no traction, so I figured i was putting it in the wrong forum. BUT I still come, read, look and see.

    The Fender Forum, its been a great place. I guess you get back what you put in. If I had to sum it up in just a few words........I guess I would say this.

    The Fender Forum, its good for America!

    Just my thoughts tonight - and there you have it.
    Kenny Belmont
    >:^{I)>

  15. #15
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    Ken, I don’t think your live gig posts were out of place at all. Keep them coming!

  16. #16
    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    Kenny, I watched most of your videos. I should have commented. Each time has shown you all to be a great band. Please keep posting them.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

  17. #17
    Forum Member FrankJohnson's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    I guess I wrote this poorly, and didn't communicate my point. It isn't about watching my videos, or anything like that.

    The point was I appreciate what I got from people here. I could have probably done much of it anyway, but the truth is it was great sharing the experiences with people here, and getting feedback on things to become a better player, better with equipment, and learn more about all of this. It is never to show off or try to seek attention.

    Again - just wanted to thank so many people for meeting up here - guys Like Chuck, and Chuck, and TJ, Cogs, and so many others that share good input about equipment and real issues with the music or eqpt. I don't agree with everyone on some things. thats ok - as they say YMMV.

    I'm not a technially proficient musician, and don't own any super fancy hi end eqpt, but have a good understanding of what I do have and most of it is pro or prosumer grade. I moved up to that level based on direct or indirect advice from a lot of the old heads here. It took a while, but I remember someone here saying way back - buy the best (or better) you can afford, or wait until you can. I remember my grandfather saying good stuff aint cheap and cheap stuff........well it aint good. Funny, those two concepts mimick each other - as good advice.


    At the end of the day the best you can do is take what you read and use it, file it, or ignore it.
    Thanks again for this forum being here - It has meant a lot to me
    Kenny Belmont
    >:^{I)>

  18. #18
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankJohnson View Post
    I guess I wrote this poorly, and didn't communicate my point. It isn't about watching my videos, or anything like that.

    The point was I appreciate what I got from people here. I could have probably done much of it anyway, but the truth is it was great sharing the experiences with people here, and getting feedback on things to become a better player, better with equipment, and learn more about all of this. It is never to show off or try to seek attention.

    Again - just wanted to thank so many people for meeting up here - guys Like Chuck, and Chuck, and TJ, Cogs, and so many others that share good input about equipment and real issues with the music or eqpt. I don't agree with everyone on some things. thats ok - as they say YMMV.

    I'm not a technially proficient musician, and don't own any super fancy hi end eqpt, but have a good understanding of what I do have and most of it is pro or prosumer grade. I moved up to that level based on direct or indirect advice from a lot of the old heads here. It took a while, but I remember someone here saying way back - buy the best (or better) you can afford, or wait until you can. I remember my grandfather saying good stuff aint cheap and cheap stuff........well it aint good. Funny, those two concepts mimick each other - as good advice.


    At the end of the day the best you can do is take what you read and use it, file it, or ignore it.
    Thanks again for this forum being here - It has meant a lot to me

    Let’s all keep it on its feet

  19. #19
    Forum Member FrankJohnson's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sérgio View Post
    Let’s all keep it on its feet
    Thank you - my point
    Kenny Belmont
    >:^{I)>

  20. #20
    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    You've got my vote.
    Striving to be ordinary

    Proud to be a TFF Dumbass!

  21. #21
    Forum Member gibsonjunkie's Avatar
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    Re: Time for an Upgrade?

    Kenny - well said! This place rawks and always will!
    "We catched fish and talked, and we took a swim now and then to keep off sleepiness." Mark Twain

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