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Thread: How would the modern guitar concept be...

  1. #1
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    How would the modern guitar concept be...

    ...if our beloved major companies, Fender and Gibson (of course, others too like PRS) had remained mainly domestic and as handmade as possible? I know, seems pointless on a first thought, but let's try to figure this.

    I mean take a look at Rickenbacker.

    RIC is kind of a rarity in the industry these days. Still a family business, all their instruments are made in Santa Ana, with as many premium quality parts as possible (good woods, Schaller tuners, good wiring and pots). They don't offer budget line imported replicas of their all known models, nor do they sport a Custom Shop to sell allegedly "custom" guitars that cost like 4 or 5 times what a standard does. In fact, all their guitars are "standard" models, the amount of bling varying slightly from model to model to suit the customer's taste.

    Few employees, a very well made product, and they are still Rickenbacker...

    So, what if our other companies had done the same? How would that have affected the prices of guitars today, and what's really cool to imagine: would we praise old vintage guitars like we do now? Would there be terms like "Burst" or "Pre-CBS" if we still had only the factories at Fullerton and Kalamazoo making fine and all good instruments?

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    Forum Member redisburning's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    Firstly, Fender was pulling parts out of a bin, guitars would get assembled a year after a neck was carved, etc. in the height of what we think of as their golden era. I personally reject the premise that they were really these amazingly constructed instruments. Bakelite on the first couple of years was so bad they had to replace the formula within 2 years; the single ply pickguards warped frequently, the nitro was quite fragile, etc. I will grant they are some of the, if not THE, best sounding guitars ever made and many of them had really good neck carves (if not terribly hard wearing finishes) but sounding good != built to some super high standard.

    Look at how the bursts have held up over the years. Yeah the anoline faded in the 58/59 models and some of the early ones got green after a couple of decades but in general they have been more durable guitars. plus Gibson's employees were significantly higher skill workers, the construction was a lot more involved (double carve top, applied binding on neck and body, glued in set neck, etc).

    Dunno, looking back at some other stuff made in the 50s and Fenders don't seem very carefully made. Look at the Parker and Sheaffer pen companies' products, or something REALLY good like a Deardorff. Not even vaguely comparable.

    Secondly, Japan saved Fender.

    Gibson I dont know. But I suspect it was the foreign market that saved them, too. Both of these companies were a victim of their own success in the 60s; both Norlin and CBS would have parted the companies out if there weren't buyers who then immediately started moving some production overseas.

    Also you might want to check your math; a custom shop reissue is about 50% more expensive than an American reissue after the typical discounts for both.

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    Rickenbacker does have a custom department and makes unique guitars and basses for clients. They just don't sell the service like Fender does and probably have a much longer turn around time.

    Fender spends a sizable amount on marketing and promotion. Rickenbacker is just not interested in operating that way. They have a few ads in guitar mags. That's about it.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    Quote Originally Posted by ch willie View Post
    Rickenbacker does have a custom department and makes unique guitars and basses for clients. They just don't sell the service like Fender does and probably have a much longer turn around time.

    Fender spends a sizable amount on marketing and promotion. Rickenbacker is just not interested in operating that way. They have a few ads in guitar mags. That's about it.

    That's exactly the point: their custom department is INDEED a custom service (it isn't even a department, if you check their website you'll see that they even deny having a "custom shop") where they make very few units according to orders, not a boutique section like Gibson's and Fender's.

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    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    Quote Originally Posted by redisburning View Post
    Firstly, (...) for both.
    Everything you said is true, but you missed the point. All that happened because of the turn things took. I'm painting an imaginary scenario.

    Plus, an American Professional strat sells for $1300 while a John Cruz goes up to $7000 easily. I'm talking about standard instruments, here, just as a 1962 Fender was back then.

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    I love old guitars, but try to not overly romanticize what Fender and Gibson were doing back in the '50s. Both brands were pretty crudely made by modern standards. These companies were not about craftsmanship and hand building instruments, except where needed. They were always factory made. The same tooling marks left on the bindings and fretboards of modern Gibsons from the crude techniques used- scraping bindings and filing neck bindings around the frets, were present on '50s instruments. When A friend helped me install and new pickguard on my '59 ES-225 he asked if it was made by cavemen!

    On the other hand, CBS and Norlin's cost cutting measures made things even worse, so I suppose if these companies made it through the past 55 years untouched (though I bet they would've eventually cut corners without corporate bean counters), we wouldn't be praising the old guitars as much, though there would still be the need for reissues to make them the way they used to. They certainly would've made advances that the purists don't approve of.

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    Forum Member redisburning's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sérgio View Post
    Everything you said is true, but you missed the point. All that happened because of the turn things took. I'm painting an imaginary scenario.

    Plus, an American Professional strat sells for $1300 while a John Cruz goes up to $7000 easily. I'm talking about standard instruments, here, just as a 1962 Fender was back then.
    I'm talking about standard instruments,

    John Cruz

    that's not exactly what I would call internally consistent. meanwhile, an american reissue and a teambuilt reissue are directly comparable guitars and aren't nearly as far apart in price. in addition, as was pointed out to you, Ric has a custom shop.

    I would suggest re-evaluating your assumptions.

  8. #8
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    Quote Originally Posted by redisburning View Post
    I'm talking about standard instruments,

    John Cruz

    that's not exactly what I would call internally consistent. meanwhile, an american reissue and a teambuilt reissue are directly comparable guitars and aren't nearly as far apart in price. in addition, as was pointed out to you, Ric has a custom shop.

    I would suggest re-evaluating your assumptions.
    RIC does not. They will make custom guitars according to the customer’s requests, and not any customer. They do not have a “boutique department” like Fender and Gibson where they make different models and offer them just like production line ones. That has been clarified above. http://www.rickenbacker.com/faq.asp?fcategory=

    The very point of the thread eliminates the “reissue” concept, and yes, I am precisely mentioning that the fetish about a “master built” or “vintage” guitar would possibly not exist in given circumstances.

    I am not assuming anything, I’m proposing an imaginary scenario and asking you what the effects would be. This is a “shooting the breeze” thread, and IMHO you still didn’t get it. Read Don’s reply, that’s the ticket.
    Last edited by S. Cane; 02-04-2020 at 05:11 AM. Reason: typos

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    I get where you're going with this.

    Prices for Fenders would definitely shoot up if you mean that they would be able to produce fewer guitars. Strats were the Holy Grail for kids in Europe in the early 60s, and so many of these kids became our heroes. Strats were almost impossible to get, so as you imagine, the prices were high when it was harder to get one.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

  10. #10
    Forum Member redisburning's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sérgio View Post
    RIC does not. They will make custom guitars according to the customer’s requests, and not any customer. They do not have a “boutique department” like Fender and Gibson where they make different models and offer them just like production line ones. That has been clarified above. http://www.rickenbacker.com/faq.asp?fcategory=

    The very point of the thread eliminates the “reissue” concept, and yes, I am precisely mentioning that the fetish about a “master built” or “vintage” guitar would possibly not exist in given circumstances.

    I am not assuming anything, I’m proposing an imaginary scenario and asking you what the effects would be. This is a “shooting the breeze” thread, and IMHO you still didn’t get it. Read Don’s reply, that’s the ticket.
    Well, you know that you are assuming things. Every conversation is based on assumptions. Most of them are shared, but they are still assumptions.

    I disagree with several of yours. I do not think they are accurate to the history of the guitars or the current state of their production. But it's clear that you dont have any desire to discussing anything but your hypothetical scenario here that you've provided, and I don't do fanfic so I'll leave you to it.

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    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    Quote Originally Posted by redisburning View Post
    Well, you know that you are assuming things. Every conversation is based on assumptions. Most of them are shared, but they are still assumptions.

    I disagree with several of yours. I do not think they are accurate to the history of the guitars or the current state of their production. But it's clear that you dont have any desire to discussing anything but your hypothetical scenario here that you've provided, and I don't do fanfic so I'll leave you to it.

    You are entitled to have your own opinion about anything and disagreements are perfectly normal, especially in the guitar field. Peace, bro.

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    Forum Member gibsonjunkie's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    Quote Originally Posted by ch willie View Post
    Rickenbacker does have a custom department and makes unique guitars and basses for clients. They just don't sell the service like Fender does and probably have a much longer turn around time.

    Fender spends a sizable amount on marketing and promotion. Rickenbacker is just not interested in operating that way. They have a few ads in guitar mags. That's about it.
    Our very own Telenator contacted Rickenbacker to have them custom build a guitar with a wider neck. They basically told him that he was a nobody so they wouldn't build one for him. Somewhere out there are phtots of the 2 RickenRocker guitars that he built - they were two beauties!

    I found some phtots here...
    "We catched fish and talked, and we took a swim now and then to keep off sleepiness." Mark Twain

  13. #13
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    Quote Originally Posted by gibsonjunkie View Post
    Our very own Telenator contacted Rickenbacker to have them custom build a guitar with a wider neck. They basically told him that he was a nobody so they wouldn't build one for him. Somewhere out there are phtots of the 2 RickenRocker guitars that he built - they were two beauties!

    I found some phtots here...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sérgio View Post
    They will make custom guitars according to the customer’s requests, and not any customer. They do not have a “boutique department” like Fender and Gibson where they make different models and offer them just like production line ones. That has been clarified above. http://www.rickenbacker.com/faq.asp?fcategory= .
    Yes, like I said. RIC is a very proud company and it’s very unlikely that they’ll build a guitar in odd specs unless a very famous player who knows exactly what he wants orders so.

  14. #14
    Forum Member phantomman's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sérgio View Post
    Yes, like I said. RIC is a very proud company and it’s very unlikely that they’ll build a guitar in odd specs unless a very famous player who knows exactly what he wants orders so.
    When I reached a point in my life where I could afford just about any guitar I wanted, I contacted a stocking Ric dealer about ordering a custom (ie: non-standard) 360/12 from them. The sole build variation I requested was a slightly wider fretboard (an additional .125") to accommodate my bratwurst fingers. But since I was deemed to be "pond scum" they refused to entertain the order and I instead settled for a MIJ Strat XII because I needed that "jangle" for band requirements. I'm no longer involved in active professional playing so the need for that Ric has now expired. But I sure would've loved to have one (maybe I still do). They just look so damn cool.
    "When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    PM, Rickenbacker is famous for refusing to do a custom shop job for anyone who is not a prominent player.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member phantomman's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    I never lost any sleep over it......I just moved on the best that I could. Apparently there wasn't a sufficient profit margin for Ric to modify an instrument to suit me. I was disappointed of course but I'm cool with their decision. My modded Strat XII sounds *almost as good* as a 360/12 with toasters and it got the job done which is all I could rightfully ask for.
    "When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: How would the modern guitar concept be...

    Quote Originally Posted by phantomman View Post
    I never lost any sleep over it......I just moved on the best that I could. Apparently there wasn't a sufficient profit margin for Ric to modify an instrument to suit me. I was disappointed of course but I'm cool with their decision. My modded Strat XII sounds *almost as good* as a 360/12 with toasters and it got the job done which is all I could rightfully ask for.

    If it does the job, you're golden. When I permanently retired, I plan to buy myself a vintage reissue like George's Ric 12 string.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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