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Thread: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

  1. #1
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    So, I often wonder what's the best approach for getting the best tone out of my rig, particularly my amp.

    I use a 40 watt Fender valve amp with a "12 speaker for most of what I do live.

    Well, there are basically three ways to play classic rock n' roll and hard blues using overdrive/distortion:

    a) using the amp's clean channel and overdriving/distorting it with pedals (which is basically what I've been doing so far)

    b) using the amp's dirty channel with just a bit of gain, and "seasoning" everything with dirt pedals

    c) using the amp's dirty channel, overdriven to the maximum desired amount of gain, and using the volume knob on the guitar to clean the sound as needed

    (Of course, the other effects, like delay, wah, reverb, et al being added ad libitum with pedals if needed).


    Does any of you do the "c" option?

    I've been tempted to try it, since I took my black strat to a tech for a quick maintenance and he played it through a cranked up valve amp, cleaning up when needed just by lowering the volume on the guitar. The tone was KILLER and I felt that I'd make it even better through my own amp, which is way better.

    P.S. if this thread fits better in another section of the forum, my apologies.

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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    the draw back of lowering the guitar volume will be you will get less sustain. What I do is use two OD pedals and cut one off to get a cleaner sound. I set my rig up so there isn't much of a volume change with any of my pedals on then with them off.

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    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    There's no hard and fast rule. It depends a lot on the pickups and the amp and the situation. Driving a 40W Fender amp to overdrive with volume alone might be a bit on the LOUD side for live playing. A DRRI with a clipped treble bypass cap on singles works very well for what you want to do. An early Boogie Mk. will also.

    But yes, the volume control on your guitar is the most effective and versatile control over your rig's sound you have. The tone controls work pretty good too.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    I'm a big fan of all of the above!

    My amp is generally set somewhere between having a bit of gritty sound to being somewhat dirty sounding (I used a tweed Deluxe clone for almost everything for years). Then I run the guitar around 6-8 for clean sounds (depending on the guitar) and 10 for dirty sounds. Most of my dirtier sounds come from a clean boost pushing the amp a little harder. I use a Fulltone '69 Pedal (germanium Fuzz Face) for everything between fatter clean sounds with a Strat to really dirty fuzz sounds.

    Every now and then, I use a channel switching amp, but even then, the amp's clean sounds are set kinda dirty and the dirty sounds are just a little dirtier and I let pedals do the rest.

    I've found that a lot of channel switching amps' dirty sounds don't clean up that well from the guitar. You'd have to experiment with your amp.

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    Forum Member Old Ranger's Avatar
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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    The instrument's type volume pot makes a difference as well. Many production models use audio taper pots. They're mostly useless until they get to 5 on the instrument from 0. They'll work fairly well above 6 or so, but tend to "load up" quickly. However, a linear pot is exponential in it's use. You get a balanced signal increase/decrease with NO curve or drop like with the audio taper pot.
    When I built custom instruments, I always installed linear pots for all controls. Many of my customers noticed the difference and wanted linears in their instruments as well.
    With a linear it's a measured decrease as you roll off the volume. With an audio taper as you roll off the volume quite often and suddenly the bottom falls out! Your sound almost dies....
    Food for thought from an old school luthier long retired. Take it for what it's worth.
    I forgot what I was going to say...

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ranger View Post
    They're mostly useless until they get to 5 on the instrument from 0. They'll work fairly well above 6 or so, but tend to "load up" quickly. However, a linear pot is exponential in it's use.
    That's actually what I like from a potentiometer. My preference is to go from clean to mean between 8-10 on the volume control (more of a 'switch" than a gradual taper). My ES-335 is more like 5-10 for the same effect. I can see where it offers better control, but it's not what I'm used to.

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    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    Thanks for the replies!

    Well, I spent an afternoon trying to do the C strategy. It’s actually easier and more intuitive than I thought. But I was surprised by a very unpleasant and trebly hiss from the amp.

    It’s not hum, it’s a definite hiss after each note I play, not as intense when I use the Rick, but almost unbearable with the strat, which has more treble. I even thought it could be that my guitars were badly setup and it could be fret buzz, but I don’t get that from the clean channel, no matter how much I crank it.

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    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    One of the things you learn playing live is that the cleaner the sound, the easier it cuts through the mix. So it actually works good to use the volume to clean up.

    Pedals - generally with a high OD or distortion you need to juice the signal to to get it to cut the mix. One of the reason so many are insanely loud at shows is that the guitar players are using too much gain and since that buries you in the mix they turn way up, then the other guitar or keys does the same. Next thing you know they're at 95dB on a slow ballad. So if you're playing and it seems like you need to turn your amp way up to be heard - that's a good time to check how much distortion or OD you have cranked in and maybe cut it back a bit.

    One of the reasons I usually play a Les Paul is that the volume and tone controls work so well on them.

    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Forum Member FrankJohnson's Avatar
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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler View Post
    One of the things you learn playing live is that the cleaner the sound, the easier it cuts through the mix. So it actually works good to use the volume to clean up.

    Pedals - generally with a high OD or distortion you need to juice the signal to to get it to cut the mix. One of the reason so many are insanely loud at shows is that the guitar players are using too much gain and since that buries you in the mix they turn way up, then the other guitar or keys does the same. Next thing you know they're at 95dB on a slow ballad. So if you're playing and it seems like you need to turn your amp way up to be heard - that's a good time to check how much distortion or OD you have cranked in and maybe cut it back a bit.

    One of the reasons I usually play a Les Paul is that the volume and tone controls work so well on them.

    Chuck
    Great observation Chuck -

    I usually find my bass sound and level by finding a sound I like at a volume I REALLY like. Then I turn it down a couple of notches. I am usually spot on! Clean and round.

    The guys I play with are pretty good about the tone volume thing, and have spent a LOT of time getting there. We are still louder than we intend to be - but "ok-ish" on volume - on the loud side of still pretty good.
    Kenny Belmont
    >:^{I)>

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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    Back in the days of folded horn bass cabs, the bass was hard to get right in the mix, (we didn't mix the instruments in the PA). I would get the sound check pretty close, and then get the bass player out on the floor with a long cord. The sound they heard on stage wasn't what was hitting the floor 30' away!
    Most were able to adjust!

  11. #11
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    Nothing is worse than a band that comes out of the chute on 11.

    One of the bands I play in is really low on the volume. Lot's of embraced technology allows us to rip at very comfortable volumes for the audience. Times have changed and so have audience preferences. Young kids don't really give a rat's ass about the music, older people love the old hits but more at the sound pressure levels of a cranked stereo than an old-school stadium show. You need to change your gear accordingly.

    YMMV,

    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  12. #12
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler View Post
    Nothing is worse than a band that comes out of the chute on 11.

    One of the bands I play in is really low on the volume. Lot's of embraced technology allows us to rip at very comfortable volumes for the audience. Times have changed and so have audience preferences. Young kids don't really give a rat's ass about the music, older people love the old hits but more at the sound pressure levels of a cranked stereo than an old-school stadium show. You need to change your gear accordingly.

    YMMV,

    Chuck

    I agree. Sometimes even the good old tube isn't the best option. I've been thinking about getting a solid state amp for a while now. Lighter, easier to drive at lower volumes.

    IIRC, my friend Old Ranger has the same opinion.

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    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    Quote Originally Posted by Sérgio View Post
    I agree. Sometimes even the good old tube isn't the best option. I've been thinking about getting a solid state amp for a while now. Lighter, easier to drive at lower volumes.

    IIRC, my friend Old Ranger has the same opinion.
    I have four "usable" amps - three modeling/combo amps, and one tube-driven. (I have two more "mini" amps that are also combo amps, but they are meant more for practicing than anything else). For the better part of the past six months or so, I've been using them in "vanilla" mode, and just letting my guitar's volume and tone knobs, along with the pickup selector, do the "talking" for me. That's the way I learned. I've never truly adapted to pedals!

  14. #14
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Using the guitar volume instead of pedals

    This is why I bough the Dr. Z Cure. It allows me to get whatever tone I want at whatever volume I need. Of course, I'm a hobbyist, play mostly blues, don't play out a lot, and very seldom for any real money. If I did, I'd treat my equipment more like tools and go with gear that was even more flexible.

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