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Thread: Car shopping!

  1. #1
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Car shopping!

    Have you tried shopping for a new or recent used car with a manual transmission lately? Frustrating! People seldom check off the correct boxes so the cars either all look like they have automatics or "other" depending on the website. Dealers are almost as bad as private sales. I think it's assumed that all cars have automatics.

    My beloved 2006 Scion xB was rear ended a couple of weeks ago. It's repairable and I received a check for the full repair from insurance (the other party accepted full liability). Though the car is not totaled, the check is for more than I could sell the car! I was going to have the car repaired then I looked around underneath and, though the floors are solid, there is some perforation around the rear jack points. Between that and the car generally starting to show its age, I think it's time to move on. I'll sell this car as being easily repairable and buy something newer.

    I'm looking for a small, nimble hatchback or wagon, great gas mileage, incredible reliability over the life of the car (I'll keep it for 15-20 years), looks that I don't find offensive, relatively flat load area (little or no liftover), and it has to have a manual transmission.

    So far, I'm looking for a newer Scion xB, Scion iM/Toyota iM/Corolla Hatch and the Honda Fit (very small). I've left the VW Golf and Golf wagon off the list because I keep cars a long time and work on them myself and VWs are not fun to work on.

    What do you people think?

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    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Have you considered Chevy/Ford?

    I love manual transmission and have always been a Ford man. To me the ideal car is a Ford sedan.

    Anyway buying a good car these days is complicated. Cars are becoming more and more electronic and expendable. I think my 2012 Ford belongs to one of the very last generations of vehicles that one can buy and really attach to.

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    Forum Member dirtdog's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    How about a Subaru? Impreza Sport hatchback?

    We’re on my third Subaru....

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sérgio View Post
    Have you considered Chevy/Ford?

    I love manual transmission and have always been a Ford man. To me the ideal car is a Ford sedan.

    Anyway buying a good car these days is complicated. Cars are becoming more and more electronic and expendable. I think my 2012 Ford belongs to one of the very last generations of vehicles that one can buy and really attach to.

    I've looked at Ford a little bit. Unfortunately, I'm one of those who was put off by small American cars- they were really bad for a very long time. I know they've come a long way, and the small American cars that we see now are internationally designed cars with DNA that often goes back to Japanese and Korean designs. Even so, planning to keep a car for 15+ years/200k miles, I'm sticking with certain brands.

    BTW, my father in-law was the service manager at Ford dealerships back in those dark days, so I have a little extra prejudice.

    Also, I don't want to say that I'm completely anti American cars- a friend has a 1994 Mustang GT 5-speed that he bought new and has put over 340k miles on with no issues. I just feel like the percentage of good vs. bad eggs is better with Toyota and Honda (they all make some lemons).

    FYI, Ford is getting out of the car market in the US (except for the Mustang and a Focus crossover).

  5. #5
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdog View Post
    How about a Subaru? Impreza Sport hatchback?

    We’re on my third Subaru....
    Tell me more about Subaru. How's the long term upkeep? I got the impression that they were a little more expensive to keep, long term, than a Honda and Toyota. How's the fuel mileage?

    Some of that my be myth. Some may be based on older cars. Some might be based on particular issues that have come and gone with the cars. For instance, a friend got rid of a fairly new Subaru a couple of years ago due to high oil use. Is that still an issue?

    I love the concept of the boxer engine. All wheel drive is great, but I have little or no need for it most of the time.

  6. #6
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    To add to this, we just bought a 2015 Civic sedan for my wife a few months ago. If we had known that I'd be needing a car we would've bought her a CR-V that I could use when I need to haul gear then I'd shop for a sedan with a manual transmission without having to worry about it being hatchback.

  7. #7
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    I've looked at Ford a little bit. Unfortunately, I'm one of those who was put off by small American cars- they were really bad for a very long time. I know they've come a long way, and the small American cars that we see now are internationally designed cars with DNA that often goes back to Japanese and Korean designs. Even so, planning to keep a car for 15+ years/200k miles, I'm sticking with certain brands.

    BTW, my father in-law was the service manager at Ford dealerships back in those dark days, so I have a little extra prejudice.

    Also, I don't want to say that I'm completely anti American cars- a friend has a 1994 Mustang GT 5-speed that he bought new and has put over 340k miles on with no issues. I just feel like the percentage of good vs. bad eggs is better with Toyota and Honda (they all make some lemons).

    FYI, Ford is getting out of the car market in the US (except for the Mustang and a Focus crossover).

    Well, if you are looking for a small car, I'd recommend the Fiesta, if it wasn't for your beef with American cars. I am a fan of those, at least the Mexican ones... I love the transmission and they are very light, which makes them pretty good on the road.

    I, myself, have a strong antipathy for Asian cars. Any. Sure, I'm not one of those guys who will call them "ricers" and frown, but those cars really don't give me a hard on, for lack of a better term. But that's me, to each his own.

    I knew that Ford was getting out of the market there, but if you plan to buy a used car and keep it for 15 years or so, I don't think it makes a difference, you'll have just as much trouble with parts and such as with any other company...

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    Forum Member Volumeknob's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    KIA SOUL--- small -- hatch they come with Stick shifts (I owned one) and they are a blast and very similar to your XB
    The only time you really live fully is from thirty to sixty. The young are slaves to dreams; the old servants of regrets. Only the middle-aged have all their five senses in the keeping of their wits.
    T. Roosevelt

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Volumeknob View Post
    KIA SOUL--- small -- hatch they come with Stick shifts (I owned one) and they are a blast and very similar to your XB
    I'd like to look at the Soul. It ticks off all of the boxes!

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sérgio View Post
    Well, if you are looking for a small car, I'd recommend the Fiesta, if it wasn't for your beef with American cars. I am a fan of those, at least the Mexican ones... I love the transmission and they are very light, which makes them pretty good on the road.

    I, myself, have a strong antipathy for Asian cars. Any. Sure, I'm not one of those guys who will call them "ricers" and frown, but those cars really don't give me a hard on, for lack of a better term. But that's me, to each his own.

    I knew that Ford was getting out of the market there, but if you plan to buy a used car and keep it for 15 years or so, I don't think it makes a difference, you'll have just as much trouble with parts and such as with any other company...
    I've seen the Fiesta listed as a less expensive, more fun to drive option compared to the Fit. I'll look into them further. Thanks!

    I've really come to like certain Asian cars. My Miata is incredible. It replaced an MGB. I'm a "car guy" through and through, raised on American muscle (my first few cars had V8s) but with a strong desire for sports cars. My mid life crisis car would have a V8 in it.

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    Forum Member dirtdog's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    Tell me more about Subaru. How's the long term upkeep? I got the impression that they were a little more expensive to keep, long term, than a Honda and Toyota. How's the fuel mileage?

    Some of that my be myth. Some may be based on older cars. Some might be based on particular issues that have come and gone with the cars. For instance, a friend got rid of a fairly new Subaru a couple of years ago due to high oil use. Is that still an issue?

    I love the concept of the boxer engine. All wheel drive is great, but I have little or no need for it most of the time.
    From my experience the oil consumption issue was hit or miss. There's still an active service bulletin and a class-action lawsuit for those that were "hit". Two of my three Subarus were excellent vehicles. Oil issue with the other. Bodies seem to be fairly bullet proof. I clipped a concrete barrier with my 2011 Forester in 2015 - dented and scraped the lower rockers/doors down to the metal on one side but not bad enough to warrant a repair (or I'm just lazy/careless). When I sold it 2018, it was *just* starting to show some minor corrosion. I drove the piss out of that car for 100K and it took a licking - winters, very rough back roads at times, some heavy-ish towing. I clocked a good many miles going back and forth to gigs with my bass rig and full PA stuffed inside. Very capable gear hauler and easy to load/unload. Took a licking for sure.

    The advantage of any Subaru is the top notch full-time AWD. You pay more for that (compared to say a RAV 4, but less than a VW Tiguan) and you take a hit on the mileage for that, but where I live and what I do with my vehicle (snow driving four-five months a year, driving the backwoods to the lake), it's the bomb. If you have no need for full-time AWD, Subaru might not be for you.

  12. #12
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    I've seen the Fiesta listed as a less expensive, more fun to drive option compared to the Fit. I'll look into them further. Thanks!

    I'd pick a Fiesta over a Fit anytime. The Fiesta is bigger and MUCH more agile (due to the car's construction and aerodynamics), though the engine on the newer Fits seems to deliver more power... At least in my experience. I'd try both and decide.

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdog View Post
    If you have no need for full-time AWD, Subaru might not be for you.
    Luckily, I only need AWD maybe 5-10 days per year. :)

  14. #14
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    It's been too stormy, cold and icy to go car shopping these past few days. I might go look at a Scion iM tomorrow night. I won't fully evaluate it until I see it in daylight.

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    Forum Member gibsonjunkie's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    I like the security of all wheel drive even in rain.
    "We catched fish and talked, and we took a swim now and then to keep off sleepiness." Mark Twain

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by KennyF View Post
    Having said that... Pick a Nissan that suits your needs and price range, and enjoy the next trouble free half-million miles...
    I can't do that. I just sold sold a rotted out POS 2006 Altima for $500. Besides the front floors rotting out, crank angle sensors and suspension components were an issue. Only car I've ever owned that had to be towed twice. I know the floor rot was specific to that generation and model, maybe the other problems were too, but it left a bad taste in my mouth for Nissans.

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    Forum Member gibsonjunkie's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    My latest acquisition went in the opposite direction. I bought a Mustang with an automatic. I've had 3 others that were all 5/6 speed manuals. I thought I'd miss it more, but I'm actually enjoying driving this beast a lot - and it gets better gas mileage than my Subaru Forrester!
    "We catched fish and talked, and we took a swim now and then to keep off sleepiness." Mark Twain

  18. #18
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    I told my wife that I'd only get an automatic if I bought something with a lot more horsepower! That's mostly kidding, though- I'd like to keep the fuel mileage up around 30mph, plus, I really like wringing out a small engine. I get a huge amount of pleasure from rowing the gearbox, heel and toe double clutching on the downshifts to get the engine "on the cam" coming out of the turns and other aspects of driving a slow car fast- I'm a firm believer in the adage that it's better to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. To me, it's like playing through a small guitar amp.

    The book The Red Car by Don Stanford corrupted me in 4th grade. Check it out-
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2909435-the-red-car

    I walked away from "fast" cars after I had a hotrodded Suzuki GSXR1100 one summer.

    BTW, my above comments about driving a slow car fast might make it sound like I drive like a maniac- I don't. I drive just a little over the speed limit and enjoy turns that I can see clearly through, and at reasonable speeds (like unwinding a tweed Champ or Deluxe in the basement).

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    Forum Member jrgtr42's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    If you want a small, sporty hatchback available with manual transmission look at the Mazda 3.
    I'm on my second 3 (2004 and 2015) and my wife has a 2012. NEver had an issue with any of them other than routine maintenance, and accident stuff here and there.
    Several trims available, I think the only one not avail with manual is the Grand Touring. Lots of good stuff standard and options.
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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by jrgtr42 View Post
    If you want a small, sporty hatchback available with manual transmission look at the Mazda 3.
    I'm on my second 3 (2004 and 2015) and my wife has a 2012. NEver had an issue with any of them other than routine maintenance, and accident stuff here and there.
    Several trims available, I think the only one not avail with manual is the Grand Touring. Lots of good stuff standard and options.
    I checked out a friend's Mazda 3. Awesome car! I love Mazda. My 1997 Miata has been rock solid. My only concern was the relatively small hatch opening with a higher liftover and lower floor compared to the hatch opening compared to some of the cars that I'm looking at. I have a bad back and need a pretty flat load surface to get amps in and out. Even with the Honda Fit I'd have to consider building a raised floor like my Scion has from the factory.

    This issue may drive me towards a recent Scion xB or Kia Soul.

  21. #21
    Forum Member jrgtr42's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    I checked out a friend's Mazda 3. Awesome car! I love Mazda. My 1997 Miata has been rock solid. My only concern was the relatively small hatch opening with a higher liftover and lower floor compared to the hatch opening compared to some of the cars that I'm looking at. I have a bad back and need a pretty flat load surface to get amps in and out. Even with the Honda Fit I'd have to consider building a raised floor like my Scion has from the factory.

    This issue may drive me towards a recent Scion xB or Kia Soul.
    Sorry about your back - other than that, the 3 sounds right up your alley. Have you checked some of the other Mazdas, like the CX 3 or 5? those are more sport utes, so it might have a slightly higher liftover from the ground, but I don't know about the ledge on the back.
    My wife's 2012 3 hatchback only has a slight liftover from the ledge to the floor. My 2015 sedan is a solid 6" or so.
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  22. #22
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    I just test drove a new Honda Fit with a manual transmission. I liked it. Unfortunately, it was silver. Why don't people like cars that have color any more?

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by KennyF View Post
    The short answer... Silver always looks clean, even when it's not...
    And it matches many home refrigerators, ovens, and laundry machines.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    I think the dual clutch paddle shift has replaced the stick for performance drivers. So much faster, and with today's power trains with narrower power bands handling an 8-speed manual might get to be of a chore.

    I'm looking at the Porsche Panamera Turbo and the ability to wonk her through the gears like Sebastian Vettel when I want to and then put it in grocery-getter mode for daily driving is really appealing. And you can tow the band trailer with it.

    If I was buying old-school, torque-monster V8 American iron with a 4 speed, heck yeah I want the hand shaker or better yet a sequential shift, but from a pure driving and performance aspect I have to go with a dual clutch & paddles. For me, there are so many upsides - plays nice with traction control and vectoring, you get a launch mode, ability to have 8 or 10 speeds that you can select the one you want in milliseconds, shifts are almost instantaneous. Downshifts are great fun. YMMV, but for me when I hit the twisties or nobody's looking on the Tail of The Dragon it's a blast to have the paddles. They let me live out my race car driver fantasies. Give it some thought.

    Chuck
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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler View Post
    I think the dual clutch paddle shift has replaced the stick for performance drivers.
    A dual clutch trans is definitely a better performance choice, but in my price range (I'm looking at sub- $20k cars, new or used), there aren't many choices (btw, it'd have to be a real dual clutch system, not a slush box with paddles). I haven't heard great things about Kia's system.
    In any case, I'm not using a manual transmission for ultimate performance, I'm partially using it for fun (kinda like my tube amps), so I'll probably keep headed in that direction as long as I have good knees and a commute that doesn't involve heavy stop and go traffic.

    The goal is to buy a car for under $20k, finance half of that for 3-4 years and drive the car another 10-12 years or more without payments.

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    Re: Car shopping!

    Bait. Or chum.

    This one lasted for 57 years and is a stick. Parts cost next to nothing and it can be made to run great on cotter pins and baling wire (if you KNOW HOW (some peeps here don't))...



    Is it getting hot in here?

  27. #27
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    That's awesome!

    I drove a '17 Scion iM and was not impressed. The car felt a little soft. The shifter was vague with a long stroke and the car had a lot of high end style gadgets and fiddly things that don't impress me.

    I just put a deposit on a new Honda Fit. I drove a couple and really connected with them. They have kind of an old Honda Civic but new kind of vibe. It handled well and felt very connected to the road- much more so than my step dad's Mini Cooper. The clutch and shifter are very light. I dig it.

  28. #28
    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by renderit View Post
    Bait. Or chum.

    This one lasted for 57 years and is a stick. Parts cost next to nothing and it can be made to run great on cotter pins and baling wire (if you KNOW HOW (some peeps here don't))...



    Is it getting hot in here?
    Nice! I learned to drive in a '61.

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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    A dual clutch trans is definitely a better performance choice, but in my price range (I'm looking at sub- $20k cars, new or used), there aren't many choices (btw, it'd have to be a real dual clutch system, not a slush box with paddles). I haven't heard great things about Kia's system.
    In any case, I'm not using a manual transmission for ultimate performance, I'm partially using it for fun (kinda like my tube amps), so I'll probably keep headed in that direction as long as I have good knees and a commute that doesn't involve heavy stop and go traffic.

    The goal is to buy a car for under $20k, finance half of that for 3-4 years and drive the car another 10-12 years or more without payments.
    I actually am a Honda man. Pretty damn flawless vehicles for the long haul. The only problems I have ever had on them has been mechanic induced issues in the early years. They are wound tight enough that somebody not knowing what they are doing can screw one up in a heartbeat. I think most have caught on by now.

  30. #30
    Forum Member dirtdog's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by KennyF View Post
    The short answer... Silver always looks clean, even when it's not...

    I just bought a black car. It looks killer when it's clean, but with the winter weather in the North-East, it's a real chore to keep it looking like that.
    my current Subaru is silver - kind of a bluish silver that reminds me of my grandmother’s 80s K-car!!! LOL. I MUCH prefer this colour over the last 3-4 black vehicles I’ve owned!

    I’ve got a black Yamaha V-Star that’s a pain to clean and a white BMW F800GS that looks great dirty! Guess which one gets ridden more?

  31. #31
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    I've got a black Miata with old fashioned single stage black paint. It's a chore to keep up. My wife has a silver/grey 2015 Civic. You can't find it in a parking lot! It looks like all the others!

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    Re: Car shopping!

    Best info-mercial on a great used alternative...

    <span style="color:#00ff00;"><font size="3"><span style="font-family:comic sans ms;">

  33. #33
    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by renderit View Post
    Best info-mercial on a great used alternative...
    Does it come with a "three on the tree" shifter?

  34. #34
    Forum Member Laker's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    We’re partial to red cars with manual transmissions. My wife drives a 505 hp 427 Vette with a 6 spd manual transmission. It’s a fun car and I highly recommend similar vehicles to you!


  35. #35
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdog View Post
    How about a Subaru? Impreza Sport hatchback?

    We’re on my third Subaru....
    I just bought a new Subaru Impreza 5 door! I like the look, the size, the handling and the sound of the flat 4 cylinder engine. I think the AWD improves the feel over a front wheel drive car even on dry pavement.

    The car is black, a color that I had planned to avoid, but it looks so good!

    I'm a little pensive after owning Hondas, Toyotas and my Miata for the past couple of decades, but it feels good to try something different.
    Last edited by Don; 03-06-2019 at 08:11 PM.

  36. #36
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Laker View Post
    We’re partial to red cars with manual transmissions. My wife drives a 505 hp 427 Vette with a 6 spd manual transmission. It’s a fun car and I highly recommend similar vehicles to you!

    A coworker has one of these in black. It's the definition of badass! Unfortunately, it does not suit my budget or needs and I'd probably get arrested.

  37. #37
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    I just bought a new Subaru Impreza 5 door! I like the look, the size, the handling and the sound of the flat 4 cylinder engine. I think the AWD improves the feel over a front wheel drive car even on dry pavement.

    The car is black, a color that I had planned to avoid, but it looks so good!

    I'm a little pensive after owning Hondas, Toyotas and my Miata for the past couple of decades, but it feels good to try something different.
    Cool car! Subarus have a certain X-Factor that makes them fun to drive. One caveat: Be a little careful with the boxer motor if you ever do track days. They have an issue with oil starvation on the inboard side of the turns and a few engines have been lost to that phenomena and not covered by warranty, but that's only for driving the car near its limits on a race track - which 99.9999% of the owners will never do. For daily driving it should be trouble-free for decades. Congrats!

    Chuck
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  38. #38
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler View Post
    Cool car! Subarus have a certain X-Factor that makes them fun to drive. One caveat: Be a little careful with the boxer motor if you ever do track days. They have an issue with oil starvation on the inboard side of the turns and a few engines have been lost to that phenomena and not covered by warranty, but that's only for driving the car near its limits on a race track - which 99.9999% of the owners will never do. For daily driving it should be trouble-free for decades. Congrats!

    Chuck
    That's a good heads up- I used to autocross my Miata and my son occasionally joins his friends and autocrosses his 240SX drift car and I mentioned to him that it might be fun if I took the Impreza. I'll look further into this issue first. Thanks!

    BTW, I'd just take the Miata to the autocross, but this is a non SCCA sanctioned event with higher speeds and they require a roll bar and I don't want one in my little open roadster.
    Last edited by Don; 03-09-2019 at 06:41 AM.

  39. #39
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    That's a good heads up- I used to autocross my Miata and my son occasionally joins his friends and autocrosses his 240SX drift car and I mentioned to him that it might be fun if I took the Impreza. I'll look further into this issue first. Thanks!

    BTW, I'd just take the Miata to the autocross, but this is a non SCCA sanctioned event with higher speeds and they require a roll bar and I don't want one in my little open roadster.
    I wouldn't worry too much for autocross. My coworker lost an engine at Watkins Glen a couple years ago - that's how I found out about the issue. But that's a fast racetrack with high-speed sweeping turns.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  40. #40
    Forum Member Laker's Avatar
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    Re: Car shopping!

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler View Post
    Cool car! Subarus have a certain X-Factor that makes them fun to drive. One caveat: Be a little careful with the boxer motor if you ever do track days. They have an issue with oil starvation on the inboard side of the turns and a few engines have been lost to that phenomena and not covered by warranty, but that's only for driving the car near its limits on a race track - which 99.9999% of the owners will never do. For daily driving it should be trouble-free for decades. Congrats!

    Chuck

    I've never worried about track time with my Corvettes. Here's my '66 back around 45 years ago and she still pulls hard when I put my foot into it. After 50 years of ownership there are no longer any warranty issues so we just let her run. I have several trophies from track days with it.
    [/quote]

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