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Thread: The $1500 Rack Project

  1. #1
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    The $1500 Rack Project

    Here's the deal:

    I've been playing my rack for a few years now and I want to build a backup. My standard rig - probably about eight grand into it, so the other guitar player in our band and I got thinking - with modern technology could a new player build a system with pro sound for a price equal or less than that of a Deluxe Reverb Reissue, a compressor, an overdrive, a distortion, a delay and tuner? Let's say the DRRI is $1100 and the pedals average 80 bucks each. That comes to $1500 and would be a nice little setup for a working guitar player.

    A system means:

    Power conditioner
    Stereo Preamp
    Stereo Power Amp
    Monitors
    Controller
    Case
    Cables

    OK, I had a spare 6RU (rack units high) SKB case to use but while looking for a power conditioner I found a used one for $70, so we'll use that price.

    Power conditioner - Found a nice LiveWire 11 socket system with LED voltage monitor and LED rack lights for $80. (Deal!)[Total $150]

    Preamp - shopped around and found a new PODHD Pro X on sale for $200 off so picked it up for $500. [Total $650]

    Controller- FBV 3 for $215 Shipped [Total $865]

    I now have a remaining budget of $635 to use for the power amp, stage monitors and cables. Used power amps are cheap, so I'm saying $200 for modern style lightweight unit, but a guy or gal can get a used Carvin stereo power amp all day for $100 and they sound pretty nice and have proven to be warhorses. [Total $1065]

    That leaves me with $435 left to find a pair of JBLs and all the cables I need. Very doable.

    So, fired up the POD HD PRO X and I'm delighted with how it sounds. My current AXEfx is bit nicer through headphones, but the POD HD PRO is well designed for live use, and the power amp and speakers will smooth it out to the point where it will sound as good live as the Fractal that costs 5 times as much. I won't say the Fractal sounds better, just different and I'm more used to it. The HD PRO X so far has impressed the heck out of me in two areas: a) it's very tactile the way it responds and b) it does very well with polyphonics and long chains. Must be good processors in it. I was able to build a 12 string sound in about 10 minutes that I'll play anywhere.

    Digging the interface too. Much better than anything else on the market. You drag and drop on your computer. Couldn't be simpler.

    So, I guess the goal can be met, and given the virtually unlimited pallet it gives one to work with, the ability to direct to FOH and/or use the stage speakers only, true stereo coupled with the sound quality - I'm struggling to understand why a new player who's goal is to play in a band wouldn't go this way.

    I get the whole collecting and playing with vintage-style gear thing and yes, a nice tube amp can sound really good - but they're a one-trick pony. You're pretty well stuck with one sound all night. A good blues tone ain't gonna cut it for Boston, Thin Lizzy or Bruno Mars, and you're at the mercy of the microphone and placement on any night anyways. So even if it sounds good onstage it might be pretty bad out front with all the bleed and room acoustics feedback.

    Yes, I know a lot of this will be heresy to a certain base of people, but it's the musings of a working musician and not some "tone" disciple who never played in a working band. If someone comes up to me at a show and asks me what to buy, this is how I'll steer them.

    All IMHO, YMMV,

    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  2. #2
    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: The $1500 Rack Project

    As a "tone" discipline who has played in hobby bands over the past 30+ years but never in a real working band, I get it.

    A friend was in a really good AC/DC tribute band. Even though he didn't need a lot of flexibility, he needed consistency night after night. He used modelling and sounded great! Heck, he didn't even set up an amp on stage (as a prop) at smaller gigs.

  3. #3
    Forum Member blackonblack's Avatar
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    Re: The $1500 Rack Project

    Skip the power amp and monitor, just get a powered speaker used. 10+ years ago I bought 2 used QSC HPR 12s for $700. Got to think you could find something similar used for $200 these days. I recently used an Alto 12" that I picked up for smaller footprint needs (yes, it sat in the closet for years) years ago for $129. Easily puts out 105db.
    Mark

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    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: The $1500 Rack Project

    Very cool experiment! My only niggle (and this is just IMHO and not a dig at you) is that running guitar in true stereo is a waste of time. Only reason I say that is that I never mix a live show in stereo, and most of my friends who are professional sound guys never hard pan. I’m all for layering amps and tones, but I don’t pan things out. Heck, I usually just mix in mono.

    With that said, I’ll be the first to admit that the new modeling technology is freaking awesome! It’s come a long way from the first POD’s and AmpFarm!!! I’ve been having a really fun time plugging my guitar into my iPhone and using AmpliTube and some other apps. Heck, I don’t even use my amps at home to record. I go straight in DI and use the modeling in Logic
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  5. #5
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: The $1500 Rack Project

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckocaster View Post
    Very cool experiment! My only niggle (and this is just IMHO and not a dig at you) is that running guitar in true stereo is a waste of time. Only reason I say that is that I never mix a live show in stereo, and most of my friends who are professional sound guys never hard pan. I’m all for layering amps and tones, but I don’t pan things out. Heck, I usually just mix in mono.

    With that said, I’ll be the first to admit that the new modeling technology is freaking awesome! It’s come a long way from the first POD’s and AmpFarm!!! I’ve been having a really fun time plugging my guitar into my iPhone and using AmpliTube and some other apps. Heck, I don’t even use my amps at home to record. I go straight in DI and use the modeling in Logic
    I used to not have my channels panned, but as I started playing a stereo preamp for the guitar I changed. I split my path to dual amps and then recombine in a mixer app. The mixer gets panned about 75% in the preamp and then I add a light ping pong and a plate, both around 10 - 15%. Then I have the house sound hard pan me in the console to FOH. This way the guitar isn't hard panned but still has some spacial effect. This was mostly a product of switching from a mic'ed amp to preamp outputs. For a mic'ed amp I would sure mix totally in mono.

    I never use the ping pong without a tap tempo as that's the key to making it sound great. If it's not in-time it makes the solos sound a little disconnected, bit when it's on-tempo it makes it sound so much better. The other cool thing is the sound people we use give a stereo feed from my guitar to the light guy's controller. He uses the white LED arrays (6x8?) one on each side and from time-to-time they sync them to the guitar which times them to the music.

    The exceptions to the above are very large outside or inside venues where you want to keep the stereo interference from cancelling and causing hot and cold spots. Once you get far enough back from the mains interference can be an issue.

    I'm snowed in so maybe I'll post some clips today. What a crappy drive home from playing last night.

    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  6. #6
    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: The $1500 Rack Project

    I haven't invested in any specific guitar amp modeling software yet but that may change. I have one of the old school POD 2.0 kidney beans that I need to find a manual for. Lately I've been going direct to my computer via the Behringer UMC and using the GarageBand amp patches. They aren't specific models more like genre (brit clean, cali crunch etc) and tweaking the plugins to taste. I haven't tried dialing in the amp controls yet. I haven't used my amps in months because I can't get any time during the day that won't disturb my mom and obviously I can't use them at night either. I won't get rid of the amps any time soon though. As I get used to playing with headphones more and more I'm finding that I play more, almost daily (...er, nightly).

    I've thought about checking out something that will get me specific amp models like black face twin, tweed deluxe, blackflag plexi 50 watt Marshall, Ampeg V-4, etc. I don't want to spend $$$ though so all those Axe whatever or Kemper stuff they rave about on TGP are all pretty much out of my range. Not sure where to look

  7. #7
    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: The $1500 Rack Project

    Cool beans OSA! 👍 I don’t hard pan live because no one else is in the true center of the room besides me and a couple other people. I’m all for spatial FX and layering multiple guitar tones, I use 2 mics on the amp the worship leader plays at church. He’s the only electric guitar so by using 2 mics allows me to add some depth of tone without adding volume with another amp or having to do anything crazy with EQ or anything.

    Another trick I use is kinda like what you’re doing with your delay. We have a Behringer X32 and I like to mess around with the delay. I can split the signal stereo in the delay and then sum to mono. So I’ll tap in the tempo and mess with the subdivision. It’s a lot of fun bouncing the sound off itself! I normally leave one channel at 1/2 and then set the other to 2/3, 1, or 1 1/3. It’s that cool odd over even thing.

    I’d love to hear some clips!!! Take care buddy
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  8. #8
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: The $1500 Rack Project

    Sorry, I went long a couple but I was having fun!

    All of these are just my Les Paul and I toggled it here and there. For iso on the guitar I think it sounds pretty good.

    https://soundcloud.com/chuck-smith-3/rack-samples

    0:00 High energy Rock and Roll - you can hear how it it responds to changes in picking attack.
    1:20 12 string emulation testing the tracking as hard as i could push it. I can clean it up more with some tweaking.
    2:14 Overdriven Rock tone. I love this sound for live.
    3:34 Chewy lead tone. Again you can hear how tactile this preamp responds.
    3:56 Clean Marshall "Jimi" tone.

    I'll see if I can get some leads recorded soon.

    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  9. #9
    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: The $1500 Rack Project

    I liked the clean marshall tones

  10. #10
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: The $1500 Rack Project

    I don't play much blues but here's some Albert Collins inspired playing I did with this rack over on another forum.

    This is straight from the rack and what goes to the mains. You can hear how I have the guitar centered but ping-pong the tails in sync.
    Starts of pretty true to Albert and then around 1:39 I let the dogs out.

    https://soundcloud.com/chuck-smith-3/fit-for-a-king

    I'm so over tube amps and pedals! Had the chance to use this inexpensive rig live five times live and I'm loving it. I even torture tested it at the last show when I fell in the parking lot and it went flying and crashing into the pavement. SKB makes good cases!

    This is a studio beater HSS Strat I keep around for ideas and practicing.

    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

  11. #11
    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: The $1500 Rack Project

    Good stuff, Chuck. Man, since I got my POD, my DRRI has been getting a rest. The technology is just getting better and better. Nice work on that tune.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

  12. #12
    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: The $1500 Rack Project

    did you tune to F#minor and capo at the 7th fret? not sure that what gets ya

  13. #13
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: The $1500 Rack Project

    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheBluesMan View Post
    did you tune to F#minor and capo at the 7th fret? not sure that what gets ya

    Nah, just standard tuning.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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