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Thread: It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

  1. #1
    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

    Ok: it's old and has been debated like forever, but I want to stir it here.


    I can't stop admiring how the British have taken the roots of Rock and Roll and the Blues and done some truly outstanding and legitimate music out of them both, though these two genres were, at first, technically "foreign".

    Thoughts?

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

    I love the blues, and I appreciate the innovative spirit. But I love what the British did with the blues even more. There would be no Stones, Zeppelin, nor Clapton without the blues, but what they built upon the blues brought about something new and wonderful.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member Don's Avatar
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    Re: It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

    It's why I picked the guitar back up in '78 or '79. I bought a couple of Eric Clapton greatest hits albums (At His Best and The History Of?). I didn't know what the blues was. It was 1978 and I was 15. It lead me to the music's roots, but it's still the basis of most of what I play.

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    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

    But let's not give the brits all the credit. Hard Rock and roll is as american as apple pie. I think some of the younger generations have bought into a revisionist history that makes it British, but the "British Invasion" in 1964 was really the beginning of pop. Rock and Roll was firmly entrenched in the US long before the Beatles, Yardbirds and Stones appeared.

    It was white kids digging black music. Ike Turner was playing Rocket 88 ( an Oldsmobile for you whippersnappers ) in 1950. There was some R&R in the 40's too. "Rock this Joint" was from the 40's and was the basis for Bill Haley's Rock Around The Clock" and IIRC "That's Alright Momma" was originally recorded in the mid-40's too.

    Then along came Elvis, and the whole world changed. Country and Blues collided in a big bang that started the expansion of the R&R universe.

    Yes, Rock has as much county in its roots as blues.

    Interestingly, in my memory, the original British blues rock guys started as pop and then after The Yardbirds became more "americanized" and laid the foundation for AOR staples like Zeppelin, Floyd, and those that followed.

    But remember, without Elvis, it may've never happened, or if it did it properly would have turned out differently.

    Many younger people have this vision of the 60's & 70's in which you turned on the radio and all you heard was iconic rock. Far from it. Most of what was played was "Snoopy vs. The Red Baron", The Archies, "Muskrat Love" and other mindless drivel. The lion's share of what got airplay was really crap. Zeppelin - a 70's band - wasn't even mainstream.

    The other thing a lot of younger people don't understand was that in the 60's and early 70's there were only a handful of top recording studios and each had it's own house band. That means that almost all the top hits recorded were done by a very small group of studio cats. The Funk Brothers played on more #1 hits than the Beatles, Elvis, and Beach Boys combined. Carol Kaye played bass on so many hit records we've lost count.

    The real root of the blues rock guys, as I look back and remember, was an unintended consequence of the studio production arms race between George Martin and Brian Wilson which challenged the paradigm of a 2:45 single.

    Then a US Army Veteran named Jimi who had been playing the blues loud and heavily electrified on the Chitlin Circuit kicked open the doors. Early Jimi is a melange of funk, blues and country licks, and we'd never heard anything like it.

    Next, a bunch of skinny, pasty British kids discovered the minor pentatonic and started playing extended guitar solos on album versions of the singles in order to get a whole LP out of a few songs and drastically reduce the production costs of cutting a record. For the three great songs Zeppelin did there are hours and hours of album fillers that - suck. Same with Deep Purple. Ever try to listen to an entire Cream Album? Can't be done without major chemical intervention. Clapton's iconic "Crossroads" solo, by today's standards is pretty loose and raggedy. Anybody can play it, most better than on the recording.

    But to my original premise, it wasn't the english kids that brought blues to Rock. It was there from the beginning.

    And lest we forget, none of this would have happened without Les Paul. He made it all possible.

    Chuck
    Last edited by Offshore Angler; 12-30-2017 at 01:44 AM.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Forum Member VibroCount's Avatar
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    Re: It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

    I have a theory about rock and roll. A real difference between America and the UK. From the beginning, the music which became rock and roll was music made by and listened to by outsiders. Start with jazz and blues in the 1930s and before, have it evolve into the jump blues and urban blues of the late 1940s. And separately, there was country music, moving toward the wilder Hank Williams sort of stuff. Add doo-wop from the urban street corners, and mix 'em up with the white country folk singing with a touch of blues, the black urban singers and musicians adding a bit of pop and large spoonfuls of country, and we get the earliest rock and roll records. Swing tunes from Illionois Jacquet's sax break on Lionel Hampton's "Flying Home" to Louis Jordan's smaller band stuff, to "Boogie Children" by John Lee Hooker, Hank Snow's "I'm Moving On"... early Orioles' records, etc., leads us to "Rocket 88" and the other obvious ones. But this music (from all directions) was unacceptable to suburban white America. Race records were banned from white radio. A few DJs played it, but rarely during the day. Schools didn't allow it at dances.

    Music was picked by producers from songwriters, matched with singers, then arrangers and conductors and musicians were hired, and records were made. The producer was paid more than the songwriter and the artist, and the rest tended to work either as piece work or on an hourly basis. Elvis was close to this, but he was singing black music.

    Along came Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, and the rest who wrote their own songs, didn't need a producer or arranger or studio musicians, and thus took everything but the engineers the pressing and marketing of the records.

    The only thing which remained constant was the records and how they were distributed. Most of the records were not sold to the public. They were being bought by the jukebox industry. Cashbox listed hits by jukebox and radio plays, not by sales. Billboard used both those, but added a little bit of record store sales as well.

    And kids would punch the jukeboxes for rock and roll, if the guys putting the disks in added that stuff.

    Then the music industry got a few favors to return the records back into the early '50's pop formula. Elvis was drafted, Berry was arrested, and Holly and Valens (another singer/songwriter) died. For the most part, teen rock was overtaken by crooners and pop idols. Brian Hyland, Bobby Vinton, Frankie Avalon, Connie Stevens, and others who barely sang rock were the big stars. Black music became soul music... Sam Cooke, James Brown with the Famous Flames, and it moved in great part to black radio stations. About the only rock and roll was the regional surf music of Dick Dale, the Bel-Airs, and the rest.

    When the Beatles came along, two things happened, one obvious, the other had the greatest impact on the recording industry until digital sharing.

    Rock was rock with the Beatles and the Stones, and especially the Dave Clark Five. And suddenly, no one was punching the jukebox. The Beatles sold more to eleven year old American girls than to the jukebox buyers. Record stores were selling more singles (and albums) than before. This killed the jukebox industry, making Cashbox magazine obsolete. Billboard dropped jukebox plays from their formula, making it nearly all record store sales with a touch of radio plays added in. Some record companies figured it out. Capitol had the Beach Boys and the Beatles, Columbia's Epic label had the DC5, London has the Stones, MGM had the Animals and Herman's Hermits. It took Mitch Miller's retirement and replacement by Clive Davis before Columbia itself signed a rock band, Paul Revere and the Raiders.

    And except for the Beatles and the Stones (after "Satisfaction"), few of these bands had great songwriters among them... Kinks and Who joined them. So Goffin/King, Lieber/Stoller, and the rest of the Brill Building sold stuff to nearly all the other rockers. It would not be until the psychedelic San Francisco bands would the bands write much of their own music.
    Education is when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get if you don't. -- Pete Seeger

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    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler View Post
    Many younger people have this vision of the 60's & 70's in which you turned on the radio and all you heard was iconic rock. Far from it. Most of what was played was "Snoopy vs. The Red Baron", The Archies, "Muskrat Love" and other mindless drivel. The lion's share of what got airplay was really crap. Zeppelin - a 70's band - wasn't even mainstream.

    I think it's always been like that. No particular genre of music was ever exclusive on the radio...





    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler View Post
    And lest we forget,none of this would have happened without Les Paul. He made it all possible.

    Chuck

    Les Paul?

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    Forum Member S. Cane's Avatar
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    Re: It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

    Quote Originally Posted by VibroCount View Post
    I have a theory about rock and roll. A real difference between America and the UK. From the beginning, the music which became rock and roll was music made by and listened to by outsiders. Start with jazz and blues in the 1930s and before, have it evolve into the jump blues and urban blues of the late 1940s. And separately, there was country music, moving toward the wilder Hank Williams sort of stuff. Add doo-wop from the urban street corners, and mix 'em up with the white country folk singing with a touch of blues, the black urban singers and musicians adding a bit of pop and large spoonfuls of country, and we get the earliest rock and roll records. Swing tunes from Illionois Jacquet's sax break on Lionel Hampton's "Flying Home" to Louis Jordan's smaller band stuff, to "Boogie Children" by John Lee Hooker, Hank Snow's "I'm Moving On"... early Orioles' records, etc., leads us to "Rocket 88" and the other obvious ones. But this music (from all directions) was unacceptable to suburban white America. Race records were banned from white radio. A few DJs played it, but rarely during the day. Schools didn't allow it at dances.

    Music was picked by producers from songwriters, matched with singers, then arrangers and conductors and musicians were hired, and records were made. The producer was paid more than the songwriter and the artist, and the rest tended to work either as piece work or on an hourly basis. Elvis was close to this, but he was singing black music.

    Along came Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, and the rest who wrote their own songs, didn't need a producer or arranger or studio musicians, and thus took everything but the engineers the pressing and marketing of the records.

    The only thing which remained constant was the records and how they were distributed. Most of the records were not sold to the public. They were being bought by the jukebox industry. Cashbox listed hits by jukebox and radio plays, not by sales. Billboard used both those, but added a little bit of record store sales as well.

    And kids would punch the jukeboxes for rock and roll, if the guys putting the disks in added that stuff.

    Then the music industry got a few favors to return the records back into the early '50's pop formula. Elvis was drafted, Berry was arrested, and Holly and Valens (another singer/songwriter) died. For the most part, teen rock was overtaken by crooners and pop idols. Brian Hyland, Bobby Vinton, Frankie Avalon, Connie Stevens, and others who barely sang rock were the big stars. Black music became soul music... Sam Cooke, James Brown with the Famous Flames, and it moved in great part to black radio stations. About the only rock and roll was the regional surf music of Dick Dale, the Bel-Airs, and the rest.

    When the Beatles came along, two things happened, one obvious, the other had the greatest impact on the recording industry until digital sharing.

    Rock was rock with the Beatles and the Stones, and especially the Dave Clark Five. And suddenly, no one was punching the jukebox. The Beatles sold more to eleven year old American girls than to the jukebox buyers. Record stores were selling more singles (and albums) than before. This killed the jukebox industry, making Cashbox magazine obsolete. Billboard dropped jukebox plays from their formula, making it nearly all record store sales with a touch of radio plays added in. Some record companies figured it out. Capitol had the Beach Boys and the Beatles, Columbia's Epic label had the DC5, London has the Stones, MGM had the Animals and Herman's Hermits. It took Mitch Miller's retirement and replacement by Clive Davis before Columbia itself signed a rock band, Paul Revere and the Raiders.

    And except for the Beatles and the Stones (after "Satisfaction"), few of these bands had great songwriters among them... Kinks and Who joined them. So Goffin/King, Lieber/Stoller, and the rest of the Brill Building sold stuff to nearly all the other rockers. It would not be until the psychedelic San Francisco bands would the bands write much of their own music.


    Very interesting analysis, I liked the remarks about the major labels.

  8. #8
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

    Yep, study up on Les Paul, he did so much more than create the solid body electric guitar. He basically invented the multi-track recording studio. He was quite simply, the greatest innovator in recorded music.

    Then look up Lonnie Mack, Paul Butterfield and Canned Heat. You'll see where the REAL roots of blues rock that the kids in England emulated.

    I'd say that Lonnie was probably the first. He will be missed.
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

    Vibro, some good stuff there. I think that's why blues rock sometimes gets misinterpreted as British. Allan Freed and a couple others had such a lock on what got played that most people in the US weren't hearing the stuff that american blues rock pioneers were playing unless they could get the "X" stations. I was lucky to have moved to Texas in the 70's and being an aspiring young guitar player "the X" was heaven - if you caught them during a rock music segment on one of the stations.

    Conversely, BBC was not as bound by the commercial aspects and was introducing the american blues rock scene to a young audience.


    Chuck
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Forum Member ch willie's Avatar
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    Re: It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

    I don't deny the glories of American blues-based rock, but I think the Brits took it to a new place, and I've always been attracted to it more than American rock. Jimi was definitely a game changer for the Brits, so yes, they built upon Hendrix as well as other American bands.

    And yes, without Elvis, a lot of it would never have happened. Lennon and McCartney were awestruck, and he was a great influence on them, as was Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, and the Brill crowd, among others. Be-Bop-A-Lula was the first single Paul ever bought. Lennon and McCartney used to go to the record stores in Liverpool and listen to the b-sides of many of these artists' hits in order to come up with their set lists--they did mostly covers up until they signed with EMI and began to gain confidence in their own material. In fact, if they hadn't been so insistent, George Martin might have kept them doing mostly covers and from song factories.

    As for 60s radio--yes it was full of bubble gum rock/pop. But I got turned onto rock by the records my oldest brother brought home on fresh release--Zeppelin, Cream, Beatles, and others. And then in the early 70s, I listened to FM, and our stations played a wide assortment of American and British rock, not necessarily the stuff on the charts. And they played entire albums or sides of albums, obscure tracks, b-sides, and so forth. I got a pretty good education from our FM stations, at least until the mid-70s, when FM rock stations drifted towards "the hits" only.
    If we'd known we were going to be the Beatles, we'd have tried harder.--George Harrison

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    Forum Member DanTheBluesMan's Avatar
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    Re: It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

    FM radio in the early '70s, there will never be anything like that ever again. I feel very fortunate to have experienced it. Sad thing is we thought it would last forever, until the evil that is ClearChannel raised its horned head from the stinking sulfur pits of its origins.

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    Forum Member OldStrummer's Avatar
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    Re: It's an endless debate, yet a very cool subject

    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheBluesMan View Post
    FM radio in the early '70s, there will never be anything like that ever again. I feel very fortunate to have experienced it. Sad thing is we thought it would last forever, until the evil that is ClearChannel raised its horned head from the stinking sulfur pits of its origins.
    Amen to that! There were two FM and one AM radio "underground" stations in the late 60s and early 70s where I was living. One of the FM stations was a broadcast student run effort from a local university and the other a family owned and operated business. I was exposed to everything from Captain Beefheart, Muddy Waters, Commander Cody and His Lost Planet Airmen, and lesser knowns, of which I still own recordings: Saloom Sinclair and the Mother Bear, J. K. & Co., Kaleidoscope, and more. I credit my interest and fascination with music to these broadcasts, as commercial radio never made much sense to me.

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