Chord of the day: C7b9b13

[Algernon]

Some people like to think of chords as triads, built with the first three notes in the major scale, 1-3-5. Triads are legitimate chords. Four-note chords are constructed the same way: 1-3-5-7. You can continue to build chords, adding what some refer to as "upper tensions" using the same formula: 1-3-5-7-9-11-13. What you get are multiple note chords. Arrangers for big-bands get some of those eerie harmonies you hear this way. Of course on guitar most of us mere mortals can only play at most six notes in any chord.

On guitar, sometimes you can even leave out roots, fifths or thirds depending on what sound you're going for. Once you understand Music Theory 101, it becomes easier to understand chord names and symbols like C7b9b13. That dominant chord would have six notes:

1-C
3-E
5-G
7-Bb
b9-Db
b13-Ab

I usually play it on guitar using only four notes, the 3rd, the 7th, the b9 and the b13. I generally leave out the root and fifth:

3-E
7-Bb
b9-Db
b13-Ab

Those notes capture the feel I want and leaving out the root and 5th makes little difference. There are several ways to play it. Here's one version of how I play it:

C7b9b13
E) - - - x - - - - - - - - Ab (4th fret – b13)
B) - x - - - - - - - - - - Db (2nd fret – b9)
G) - - x - - - - - - - - - Bb (3rd fret – 7)
D) - x - - - - - - - - - - E (2nd fret – 3)
A) - - - - - - - - - - - - mute
E) - - - - - - - - - - - - mute

Here’s another easier voicing for the same chord played a little higher on the neck:

C7b9b13
E) - - - - - - - - z - - - Db (9th fret – b9)
B) - - - - - - - - z - - - Ab (9th fret – b13)
G) - - - - - - - - z - - - E (9th fret – 3)
D) - - - - - - - z - - - - Bb (8th fret – 7)
A) - - - - - - - - - - - - mute
E) - - - - - - - - - - - - mute

And below is yet a third voicing for the same chord.

C7b9b13
E) - - - - - y - - - - - - Bb (6th fret – 7)
B) - - - - y - - - - - - - E (5th fret – 3)
G) - - - - - y - - - - - - Db (6th fret – b9)
D) - - - - - y - - - - - - Ab (6th fret – b13)
A) - - - - - - - - - - - - mute
E) - - - - - - - - - - - - mute

And here are all three voicings shown on the same neck-graph using x, y and z for the different versions.

C7b9b13
E) - - - x - y - - z - - -
B) - x - - y - - - z - - -
G) - - x - - y - - z - - -
D) - x - - - y - z - - - -
A) - - - - - - - - - - - -
E) - - - - - - - - - - - -

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Quiz:

=================

1) Are there any other voicings for the same chord?

2) Do you always have to leave out just the root and fifth?

3) When would you use a chord like this, under what circumstances?

4) What chord would it be in a natural chord progression?

5) In what key?

=================

Answers:

=================

1) Of course, there are many other voicings for the same chord.

2) No, you can play them or leave out other tones as well.

3) This is a dominant chord, used to evoke a more blue or more jazzy feel.

4) It would be used as the fifth chord in a natural progression.

5) The key would be F major. The 5th chord in the key of F is C7.

[lyles]

Originally posted by Algernon
Some people like to think of chords as triads, built with the first three notes in the major scale, 1-3-5. Triads are legitimate chords. Four-note chords are constructed the same way: 1-3-5-7. You can continue to build chords, adding what some refer to as "upper tensions" using the same formula: 1-3-5-7-9-11-13. What you get are multiple note chords. Arrangers for big-bands get some of those eerie harmonies you hear this way. Of course on guitar most of us mere mortals can only play at most six notes in any chord.

On guitar, sometimes you can even leave out roots, fifths or thirds depending on what sound you're going for. Once you understand Music Theory 101, it becomes easier to understand chord names and symbols like C7b9b13.

Algernon,
This is good stuff. Thanks for posting.
Can I suggest that you get back to Music Theory 101 for those of us who have learned to play without that background?
I would be interested in learning more from MT101 and up.
Perhaps you can turn these occasional info threads into a weekly "lesson" thread? building on the info in the previous thread as you go. I'd appreciate it and I'd look in on it regularily.

[Algernon]

A typical minor sounding blues or jazz vamp using a C7b9b13 might be I-VI-II-V and might go something like this:

Fm6 - Dm7b5 - Gm7b5 - C7b9b13

and repeat.

Of course for that progression the bridge naturally wants to shift to the key of Ab major for resolution since Fm is the relative minor of Ab.

Might sound confusing but it works out nicely.

You could also play:

F - Dm7 - Gm7 - C7b9b13

and remain relative to the key of F major, but you lose that really nasty gritty minor sound present in the first progression.

An interesting modification to the first progression has an ascending bass line:

F - Ab - Bb - C

with chords:

Fm6 - Dm7b5/Ab - Bbm6 - C7b9b13.

Always try to think of what the bass player is doing. Ultimately what the bass does defines the entire song. I know that sounds like blasphemy coming from a guitar player but it's true.

[Bill Barnard]

Originally posted by Algernon
A typical minor sounding blues or jazz vamp using a C7b9b13 might be I-VI-II-V and might go something like this:

Fm6 - Dm7b5 - Gm7b5 - C7b9b13

Shouldn't that really be i-vi-ii-V or am I mixing my major and minors?

Does anybody else that hangs out at the FDP too miss this stuff by Algernon?

[Algernon]

Bill, you are right. I should have used the lower case Roman Numerals, not the upper case ones. My mistake. I tend to think in numbers anyway, you know, 1-6-2-5. Using the Roman Numerals is one step removed and I easily forget. Thanks for pointing that out.

[fusion58]

Chord of the week: C7b9b13

In actual practice, you will rarely see a chord represented as "C7b9b13."

You're more likely to see C7(b9#5) or C7+(b9).

Why?

Because b13 is enharmonically equivalent to #5.

Leaf through "The Real Book" and you'll see what I mean.

[stxrus]

Algernon, Fusion58 and all,
as someone who just recently has discovered that i have either forgoten most of the theory i thought i learned or never really learned it correctly in the 1st place i would be interested in more of the basics of music theory. not as basic as A, A#/Bb, C.... the white keys... etc. but more on the lines of scale structure, modes and what "works" with what. r&r, blues, jazz, r&b, etc. does this make any sense?

i am waiting for a catalog from Jamie Aebersold (referred to as JA by his many fans) to find a book on theory related to guitar. it seems the more i "discover" the less i seem to know.

also, what is the "Real Book"? my curiosity is growing.
thanks for the info, even if i get lost:p

steve

[Algernon]

fusion58, I see what you mean. However, the difference as I understand it between say a C+7b9 and a C7b9b13 is that with the first chord there is no fifth, (no G), because it is augmented. However, in the C7b9b13 there is a fifth (G). You get the Ab from flatting the 13, not by augmenting the 5.

It took me a long time to understand these subtle differences myself. Enharmonically they are identical. The only real difference is in the scale accompanying each chord.

The two scales for the two chords are below.

C7b9b13
C-E-G-Bb-Db-Ab

C+7b9
C-E-Ab-Bb-Db

Note that in the first scale you have two half steps side by side: C-Db (1 and b9) and G-Ab (5 and b13).

In the second chord you only have one: C-Db, because there never was a 5 or a 13 to begin with.

True, you see lots of bastard chords in the real book. I happen to own lots of the original music score for many of the tunes in the real book. Often the actual published version of the music differs from what you find in the real book, for brevity I would assume.

[fusion58]

Hi Algernon:

As I mentioned earlier, the reason the symbol "b13" isn't commonly used in dominant seventh chords is because a flatted 13th is enharmonically equivalent to an augmented fifth. In the same way, you don't see the symbol "10th" used in practice because a 10th is enharmonically equivalent to a major third. It's ultimately just a convention, I suppose.

In the book "Chord Chemistry" by Ted Greene (long regarded by many as the essential chord reference) you will find no dominant chord represented as "C7b9b13".

BTW, aside from natural minor and harmonic minor, there is just one scale commonly used in western music which contains both a perfect fifth and a flatted sixth: the phrygian dominant (a.k.a. phrygian major) scale, which is the fifth mode of the harmonic minor scale. (Spelled 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, b7.) The chord you described is built from this scale.

Obviously, phrygian dominant is the scale of choice to play over the chord you described inasmuch as the scale contains both a b2 (enharmonically equivalent to b9) and a b6.

Thus, you can play either C phrygian dominant or F harmonic minor over the chord in question.

The other scale that would work fine would be the altered scale (a.k.a. super locrian, diminished whole tone) which is mode seven of melodic minor.
Like the symmetrical scales, there is no single correct enharmonic spelling, but this scale can be spelled 1, b2(b9), #2(#9), 3, #4(b5), #5(b6), b7. As you can see, this scale contains both a b9 and a #5--as well as all other possible alterations (including some which aren't included in the chord in question.)

At any rate, it's always good to have a discussion about the music itself.

[fusion58]

i would be interested in more of the basics of music theory....more on the lines of scale structure, modes and what "works" with what. r&r, blues, jazz, r&b, etc. does this make any sense?

Gotcha.

"Improvisation Made Easier" by Frank Gambale is a great applied technique book on modes and chord/scale relationships for guitarists. Frank covers all of the important modes and scales and provides lines which demonstrate each. (TAB included.)

Also, "The Frank Gambale Technique Books--Volumes 1 and 2" are great, IMO. These two books made life easier for me when I got to G.I.T.

http://www.frankgambale.com/

BTW, "The Real Book" is a book (actually, there are several editions in existence) of jazz standards commonly used by jazz musicians.
It's a "fake book", i.e., a contains notation of just the chords and the melody for tunes (rather than complete scores.)

[fusion58]

Ooops, I forgot to comment on this:

The two scales for the two chords are below.

C7b9b13
C-E-G-Bb-Db-Ab

C+7b9
C-E-Ab-Bb-Db

Actually, those aren't scales--they're arpeggios.

Both of the chords spelled here are built from the phrygian dominant scale (1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, b7) as I mentioned in my previous post.

The phrygian dominant scale is the only scale that has the intervals b2(b9), 3, 5, b6(#5 b13), and b7.

Note: The chord C+7(b9) can also be built from the C altered (a.k.a. super locrian, diminished whole tone) scale.

I usually play it on guitar using only four notes, the 3rd, the 7th, the b9 and the
b13. I generally leave out the root and fifth:

3-E
7-Bb
b9-Db
b13-Ab

In this case it would be more common to use #5 (rather than b13) in naming the chord. Also, if the root is omitted, the chord is not technically a C+7(b9) chord unless someone else (e.g., bass player) is playing the 'C' root.

[fusion58]

However, in the C7b9b13 there is a fifth
(G). You get the Ab from flatting the 13, not by augmenting the 5.

If you play this chord (C-E-G-Bb-Db-Ab) on the piano (don't omit any of the notes) you end up with an augmented triad (C, E, Ab) rubbing up against a perfect fifth (G)--which sounds highly dissonant (which is probably another reason why you seldom see such a chord in practice.)

[Bill Barnard]

Yeah, but what would FeloniusPunk say? ;^)

[Algernon]

FeloniusPunk just loves those Super Locrian scales ...



fusion58, I think chords with dissonances in them like the C7b9b13 (or C+7b9) are the types of chords Bill Evans used to have a lot of fun with. One way he'd get those eerie sounds was to take a chord like that and bury the half step tones right beside each other inside the chord. Something like E-G-Ab-C-Db-Bb. Easy on piano, hard on guitar.

Dissonance isn't necessarily a bad thing, if used properly. Sounds like you really know your stuff. Wish you had been around a few years ago when I was still trying to learn all this stuff. Great posts.

[fusion58]

One way he'd
get those eerie sounds was to take a chord like that and bury the half step
tones right beside each other inside the chord.

That's correct. I, for one, like to play those same type of clusters you mentioned on the guitar whenever possible. Another way to do this is to use voicings which arent't built in the traditional way, i.e., from thirds. For example, 7, 1, 6 (in C MA that would be B, C, A) and then sequence these voicings (parallel with the scale, that is, move each voice in the chord up to the next scale degree.) BTW, speaking of Bill Evans, have you checked out any of the books out there which contain transcriptions of Evans' lines/solos, etc., for guitar? (Corey Christiansen for Mel Bay, Sid Jacobs, etc.)


Dissonance isn't necessarily a bad thing

True that. Also, dissonance is a subjective thing. Intervals which might sound really out to one person might sound consonant to another. It's ultimately a matter of what your ear has been trained or conditioned to accept. I remember when I was first learning about jazz I couldn't stand the sound of a #11 on a MA7 chord. Now it's one of my favorite sounds. That said, there are some intervals that seem to sound "out" in almost any context, e.g., the inclusion of a perfect fourth in an ending chord, (major chord) etc.

[fusion58]

Here's some tab for some of the Bill Evans-type voicings I described in my last post. To the best of my knowledge, Stravinsky was the first western musician to explore these voicings.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/elmer6...n_voicings.TAB

[Old Tele man]

I realize this is redundant, but classical music theory dictates that the "righthand" b9 and b13 notes are actually different from the "lefthand" b2 and #5 (minor 6) notes ...although they ARE octaves of each other. That's WHY they're notated as they are, to denote which octave they're supposed to be played in.

For guitar players, however, things aren't so nice and orderly. With 6 strings and only four fingers (and occassionally thumb), something has to "give" when forming extended chords, and what "gives" is the music theory "rule" of positional octaves that ALL upper notes MUST be in the upper or second octave. The "rule" is 'bent' to recognize that a b2 note is the same as a b9 note because they both share the same scale position, ie: same distance from a Root note.

Here's what the U. S. Navy's music book, HARMONY, NAVEDTRA 12012, March 1990, has to say about the "Lowered Thirteenth" (page 19-6):

"The chord includes the pitch a minor thirteenth (minor sixth) above the root of the chord when (b13) is part of the chord symbol. The symbol (b13) is the preferred indicator, but (-13) is also used. This alteration usually occurs on dominant seventh type chords with altered ninth and raised eleventh. It also occurs on minor eleventh (b5) and diminished eleventh chords. The altered 9, (#11), and (b13) on dominant seventh type chords should be indicated in the chord symbol."

So, as noted above, the notes (by strict music theory) should be:

C7(b9b13)

<piano lefthand notes, within 1st octave>
R = C
3 = E
5 = G
7 = Bb
<piano righthand notes, 2nd octave>
b9 = Db
11 = F#
b13 = Ab

Because there is NO second hand available for guitar fretting, following the classical music theory that ALL the upper notes must reside within the second octave is almost always impossible to do on guitars. So, instead, guitar chords are usually "dropped," ie: the upper notes that would've (should've?) been played in the second octave (ie: above the second Root) are fingered without regard to the "octave above" rule.

Thus, the b9 could be either a b2 (within the first octave) or a b9 (in second octave) depending upon which fingering you use.

The samething goes for the b13 note, it could be either a #5 (minor 6) note within the first octave or a 'true' b13 note in the second octave. And, because it's usually physically impossible to fret BOTH the triad 5th and the adjacent #5 note, the 5th is typically omitted and only the #5 note is played.

And, for the REALLY musically acute (or curious) ears: Yes!, there IS a difference in how such chords sound, because a b2 note is "beating" against adjacent Root and 3 notes; whereas, a "real" b9 note is "beating" against adjacent 7 and 11 notes, and there IS a difference in the "beat" notes created...a "subtle" difference in chord sound.