Sansamp Character Pedals - To Go Ampless or Not...

[Rickenjangle]

There's been a lot of talk about using, for instance, a POD as a backup amp, and at least a couple of y'all have a Blonde or British Character pedal to go ampless...and I know that PC has gigged through an iPad with a British...

So I thought maybe we could have a thread about the Character Series Pedals that discussed how best to utilize them...

I'll start it off...

One of the semi-regular gigs I have is at a club where floor space is at a premium. Last time I gigged, I put a pair of Marshall Class 5's on milk crates and left 'em unmic'ed because the place is THAT small...I have a 4 piece band with a 2nd guitarist that plays through a SFPR.

As mentioned in another thread, I'm the guy who lugs the (small) PA - a pair of Kustom 10" wedges for monitors and a pair for mains (only putting vocals through 'em). No mics for other instruments. I have more gear but for this place, even that is a lot.

So - I've got an overdrive, a fuzz, and a boost that I gigged with last time - left the pedalboard at home and just brought these few pedals...I also like to have a bit of delay and/or reverb.

So the crux of my issue is:

1. I'm sure I'd like to use the Blonde and British pedals, NOT for overdrive, but just to get that Fender or Marshall sounds - not to be used at the same time, just one or the other...

2. Reverb sounds funny after heavy overdrive - could you run a reverb pedal just before the PA head? - caveat: even the Marshall sound would be just a slight bit of crunch.

3. Would you run TS9--Fuzz--Boost--analog delay--amp modelers--reverb--PA head?

4. Alternatively would you just use one or the other of the Blonde and British pedals?

[concert410]

Rickenjangle,
Take a good look at the Sansamp GT-2. It has a Fender setting, a Marshall setting, and a Mesa setting. Each of those has a clean, hi gain, and modern\modified setting. You can also have your choice of voicings for different mic's - as in off axis, center, or classic.
http://www.tech21nyc.com/support/man...amp/GT2-OM.pdf
While it may or may not be as fine tuned into each amp, I can pretty much dial in my amp's tones and do it fairly quickly. The GT-2 is a little more money, but it is versatile.

[pc]

Johnny, I gigged that very rig for almost all the second half of 2010.

Tuner - wah - Boss LS2 - Tech21 Tweed -OR Tech21 British - direct box.

The LS-2 was set so it toggled either character pedal so neither was in the signal path at the same time, since they both have speaker simulation that wouldn't sound right combined. I had the Tweed pedal set mostly clean and the British pedal set dirty. No other overdrive pedals.

The band guys loved it for the ease of mixing and I have to admit that out front it sounded good. In fact I have say the Tweed sounds GREAT and the British was good. I could roll down the guitar volume without the British pedal and get really nice crunch, or all the way up for heavier leads if needed.

And let's be honest, showing up with only one guitar (or even two) and that small pedalboard was a truly wonderful load-in/load-out.

However as of this year I'm back to my trusty DRRI and one OD pedal. There's just too much enjoyment I miss from not having that rig at gigs, and the lessons learned for all of us are that if I set the amp on a higher stand so that it's close to me and aimed right at my head, I can turn it down enough that nobody has to mix to it and the other folks in the band (who all wear in ear monitors) can't even hear the amps stage volume, only as much of it in their IEMs as they want. Everyone wins.

[concert410]

PC

I hadn't thought of the LS-2 option. I was living with just turning down the guitar's volume to get clean(er) sounds.
The load in and out is so incredible. Since all of us are direct, there are no amps and the drums are V-drums too.

[Mesotech]

I've been tempted, and while I'm fairly sure it would work well and sound good, I would still miss the amp too much. So for those reasons, I never pursued it. My opinion is all based upon a friend that owns one of each of the Tech21 Character pedals. They sound great on recordings, and standalone, but I've never heard them in a real band setting. What I did hear was good enough to get me contemplating it.

I like to collect and play numerous amps, of pretty much all sizes, so finding the right amp for the venue hasn't been a problem for me in a long while. The Character pedals would offer me a much wider range of tonal possibilities, but I'm not sure I'd use them all in every instance. The reason being is, taking a single real amp to a gig already limits the tonal possibilities and I don't have real desires to bring additional amps that I already own. Having the extra tones wouldn't benefit me a great deal.

To answer the question about the reverb and it's placement, you might consider using a reverb unit as an insert on the PA. Let the sound guy set it as needed.

The Character pedals are typically meant to be the end of the line, just as an amp would be, so using one (or more individually) after your normal pedalboard would be the proper way to employ them. If you don't normally use a dirt box in front of a Marshall amp, you probably wouldn't use one in front of the British pedal either. If you use a tube screamer in front of your favorite Fender amp to goose the front end a bit, you'd get the same result with the Blonde pedal replacing the amp. If you really desire the sound of an amp behind you, you could put the pedal(s) into a Tech21 Power Station.

I know that I sound like I'm talking myself into going this route, if I were to do this, all of my other amps might never get used again. That would be a terrible waste, and I really do enjoy using them. Stage space would basically be the only reason for 'me' to go this route, but already needing to bring and setup two keyboard rigs dictates that I will probably already have room for at least one of my current amps.

The CS pedals might be cool for convience when attending a quick jam session, but even then there's a part of me that enjoys getting the reactions I do from other musicians when they look to see what I brought to play through. When they see me walk in with a well working vintage amp, they don't fret about what it might sound like, or how that sound will affect the sound of their rigs.

The CS pedals do fit a niche market, and from what I've heard, they do it very well (to my ears they're more authentic than any modeller). However, I don't believe they're for everyone. If 'my situation' were different, I'd give them a fair shot in a heartbeat.

[concert410]

I will make one more comment on this thread..... My band got two high paying jobs when audience members could see how easy it was for us to control levels. The manager asked us to turn it down a notch while there was function going on. I said no problem, he saw me move the two main faders and the manager was happy. I told them it is that easy and that we are there to please the person in charge. Instant money!!! As I keep saying, the real key is that the drums are through the P.A. also. Keeping down the volume coming from the stage is main advantage of going direct/ampless.

[pc]

Both your main points are highly valid. Despite our (by which I mean MY) gut reaction of not giving two shits if one old fuddy-duddy at a private party or wedding thinks that they can somehow dicate the volume everyone else is listening to, the simple fact is that club owners, party planners and everyone else who isn't a musician are greatly impressed with bands that can turn down their volume just like a boom box. Rocking out is great, but if you're also in it to make money (as I am), you have to please the person holding the check.

Secondly, the way my band does it is only half as effective because we do use a regular drum kit. Everyone feels differently about such things, but I had a side-gig from '06 to '09 in a Classic Rock band with a digital drum kit and I HATED it. It's my own personal Kenny G. Can't do it. In fact, I love Kenny G. compared to V-drums.

But the point is that we can only turn down so far because of the real drums, and of course we have horns as well. The main benefit for us is no stage monitors blaring at us. That cuts down the overall perceived volume of the band from the crowd as well I guess, but it's still mostly for us.

[Don]

If I was a pro, I think I'd go this way. I'm not, I play out (on occasion) for fun, and enjoy using an amp.

It's kind of like buying a car with a traditional manual transmision when a dual clutch semi-automatic is available. I'd probably be quicker around the track with the semi-auto, but I enjoy rowing the stick!

[pc]

Agreed. And as much fun as I have with my DRRI at gigs, I have even more fun if I bring two amps. Then I really get mean looks.

I should also add that there was one very large venue we used to play that actually had a full iso-cage for the drums--a high wall of plexiglas. That was a awesome because for once I could wear my IEMs and still hear everything since they had the kit fully miked. I totally get why the pros do it.

[Rickenjangle]

Agreed. And as much fun as I have with my DRRI at gigs, I have even more fun if I bring two amps. Then I really get mean looks.

I've been a 2-amp addict for a long, long time...but then again I am getting tired of carrying them!

[Offshore Angler]

Johnny,

Just got back from Key West. Ran into a few musician's I know. Probably saw 30 live bands. Did not see a single conventional tube amp. Everyone there was using a either a preamp -the BOSS GT Series being the most common and sounding danged good - a small Line 6 or similar modeling amp, or a MAC.

Almost every drum kit was behind baffles too.

It was sooo nice to be able to hear the vocals clearly.

[Rickenjangle]

Speaking as the singer, it would be SO nice to be able to hear my vocals well without having the monitors cranked to the point of feedback...

[Kap'n]

Johnny,

Just got back from Key West. Ran into a few musician's I know. Probably saw 30 live bands. Did not see a single conventional tube amp. Everyone there was using a either a preamp -the BOSS GT Series being the most common and sounding danged good - a small Line 6 or similar modeling amp, or a MAC.

Almost every drum kit was behind baffles too.

It was sooo nice to be able to hear the vocals clearly.

I suspect that the constant salt air exposure has the pros using disposable amps. I also suspect that your typical Key West vacationer is probably less critical about sound than you or I.

Not saying they sounded bad - far from it, but I suspect a lot of that goes into equipment choices there.

[concert410]

Hey, I love my expensive (Marshall and Mesa) tube amps as much as the next guy. I was just making a point about working from week to week. I hate to admit it, but I need every penny that I gig for. I'm the first to admit that it seems a bit sterile to go direst w/ V-drums, but it makes it a lot more practical to go up against the competition which, by the way isn't always other bands. It's karoake and DJ's. They have the big advantage in that they don't take breaks, they can control their volume, and they usually don't take up too much space. Those three things alone make the V-drum\direct inputs worth it to have as an option. I can't wait for thr outdoor shows in the summer when I can air out my amps though....

[Offshore Angler]

Agreed. What I see over and over is that the days of tube amp volumes are way behind us.

[Rickenjangle]

Says the man whose DRRI can stun small animals at eighty paces!

But he's right - the days when a DRRI, mic'ed or unmic'ed, at 22 watts can't cover 90 percent of any working Joe's volume needs are over and done with. Yes, we here on TFF are becoming geezers with bad backs and incipient tinnitus - and a bad case of the "yesterday's tones are better than today's" - but still, you don't need a pair of Marshall stacks to rock a club or a backyard BBQ or, hell, anything other than an arena!

One other thing I'm going to try out is to do one of my small club gigs with one of the Marshall Class 5's, mic'ed...see if the PA can handle putting the lead guitar through it...then I'll know if I can truly do with just the one, or even if I can perhaps do without.

[the_best_of_fools]

Why not get yourself one of these...

Trademark 30

Power Engine 60





A Fender, a Marshall and a Mesa... all in one box. 30 Watts. Effects loop. Great sound. Plug the XLR out to the PA and that's it. You can also daisy chain it to as many Power Engine 60's as you want for extra wattage...

[Offshore Angler]

Holy Crapoli! Those Power Engine 60's are effing loud! I use a 30 and it can clear a room if I'm not careful. I can't envision a situation where would need that kind of stage volume.

[Offshore Angler]

Says the man whose DRRI can stun small animals at eighty paces!

But he's right - the days when a DRRI, mic'ed or unmic'ed, at 22 watts can't cover 90 percent of any working Joe's volume needs are over and done with. Yes, we here on TFF are becoming geezers with bad backs and incipient tinnitus - and a bad case of the "yesterday's tones are better than today's" - but still, you don't need a pair of Marshall stacks to rock a club or a backyard BBQ or, hell, anything other than an arena!

One other thing I'm going to try out is to do one of my small club gigs with one of the Marshall Class 5's, mic'ed...see if the PA can handle putting the lead guitar through it...then I'll know if I can truly do with just the one, or even if I can perhaps do without.

My DRRI is a little juiced, but not that much. I just have reached a point where I'd rather hear a really good song come out of the band rather than obsess over "tone". I honestly find at today's gigging volumes I can get better sound with a preamp than tube amp, since I can have the preamp giving me a full overdriven sound at a reasonable volume.

The point of the exercise is not to drown out the vocals. Vocals need to be clear and way out front for the band to sound good. If the drums, keys and guitars are drowning them out, or making the singer shout to the point that his or her dynamics and subtleties and go out the window, then the guitar tone really doesn't mean shit.

Plus, with my DRRI rig there are only a couple of sounds available, and even thought he amp sounds great, it might not be the right sound for the song. Just because a "tone" makes you happy, it doesn't mean it's the right one for the song.

If I was in a blues band and doing the same thing over and over and over and over... all night, sure. But I need to do more than that.

That's where the versatility of the preamp shines. It can do almost anything at any volume. That's a great tool for a gigging player!

[Rickenjangle]

I have GOT to hear this Fractal thing you're touting...

[concert410]

Rickenjangle, we are getting older. Setting up\tearing down\loading the vehicles does wear me down more than it used to. Now that our drummer has figured out how to get the cymbals to not sound digital, I am embracing technology a little bit at a time. My back is thanking me for it.

[Rickenjangle]

I got to try out the British and Blonde pedals today - plugged 'em into a keyboard amp (kind of like a PA but more ready-to-hand) with an AmSt stratocaster...

They were both very very nice, and I was amazed at the scope of sounds that were available with the Character knob. I was less convinced that the clean amp sounds were THAT much better than just plugging in direct, but I'd like to perhaps find one used and then put it through its paces at a sound check...

But first, the mic'ing of one Class 5...wonder if it'll be a little bit like the sound of one hand clapping...

[Don]

This is starting to sound interesting. In March,. another guitarist will be joining us for a few songs at the local tavern. The "stage" is small, barely room for the regular band, and the only amp he owns is a JCM900 half stack (I play this gig with an un-mic'd 5E3 clone!)!

[NeoFauve]

Are there any problems with hiss in the Character Pedals?

I have an older Tri-AC preamp pedal, and through my keyboard amp (which used to be my mini PA) lately it is hissy.

The only reason I have the Tri-AC out is that my tube amp is in pieces right now.

[muddy]

Are there any problems with hiss in the Character Pedals?

I have an older Tri-AC preamp pedal, and through my keyboard amp (which used to be my mini PA) lately it is hissy.

The only reason I have the Tri-AC out is that my tube amp is in pieces right now.

I just ordered and received the Tech21 Blonde Sans unit and it was dead quiet hooked up to my PA. I didn't have the volume cranked way up though?

[Rickenjangle]

I can tell you that the only time I encountered noise this evening was when I had the Character on the British all the way 'round to the JCM800 sound and the gain cranked past half...and that sounded about as '80's hair metal as you could want, and would have been pretty quiet if I'd had humbuckers...

The old-school Marshall Plexi's clean sound on that pedal sounded nice and expansive in a Wind Cries Mary way - very nice and very different from the Fender clean.

I also am going to take some time to try out the Leeds and Liverpool pedals, which they have in stock at my local store.

[NeoFauve]

I just ordered and received the Tech21 Blonde Sans unit and it was dead quiet hooked up to my PA. I didn't have the volume cranked way up though?

That's good to hear.
Do you mean the level on the pedal, or the PA?

On the TriAC, the culprit for hiss is usually the the "Drive" control.

My next use for something like the Character pedal is direct recording.
Hiss would really bug me in that context, more than it might on stage.

[concert410]

I see you guys are seeing things the same way that I did. I never in a million years thought I'd ever go ampless for any reason, but it is practical to think at least about it. After putting aside my own ego, and the drummer putting aside his - he had to buy the V-drums and then discover that programming the one good drum kit that he liked is better than using the 5 billion presets - the band mix is much better and controllable. We take up much less room and have a much easier load in and out. As a band, not only can we play quieter, but because of much more efficient use of the p.a., we can actually play much louder if want to. Without the loud stage volume, no more ringing ears!!! There are so many benefits to be had. Last night, we had band practice..... with acoustic drums and amps. It is fun, but to tell the truth, it is harder to hear everyone and it seems LOUD as hell, especially for playing in a house. I hate to say it was a small step backwards.

[Kap'n]

If I go ampless, what am I going to do with all these amps I built?

[Rickenjangle]

Going ampless isn't for everybody...I suspect that for some, the tone is everything, and affects how you play (as it does me, but with singing and fronting the band and such, I realize that the pursuit of fabulous tone is starting to go lower on my list)...

[muddy]

Oh, I won't be going ampless anytime soon, with my full band anyway.

I could see using a modeling unit for certain applications, but as good as some sound there's just no replacing my Vibroverb. Maybe for a solo / duo type scenario or as a back-up (which is why I purchased one).

There's just a certain magic that happens with a good and warmed up tube amp in close proximity with the guitar. I have yet to see the same dynamics in any modeling unit.

[Rickenjangle]

I do this gig occasionally where it's just me, and my acoustic guitar - one little PA head and a pair of wedges at my sides, aimed outward...but last time I also brought my red gretsch and a small amp, to change it up a bit...I'd love to be able to just bring one of these lil' pedals, for that application alone...

[concert410]

Unless you have decent monitors that allow you to hear everyone, it wouldn't work. The whole point is to hear yourself clearly AND hear everyone else. One benefit that I hadn't realized until last night's band practice is that as a singer, I don't have scream\sing as hard. I guess that is by product of the stage volume being reduced. As far as guitar\speaker interaction, you'd be surprised at how easy it is to get feedback when you want it and it is the good controllable kind.

Rickenjangle -
I did the solo acoustic thing with an Ovation and one of the Zoom units right into the board for a few years. Worked great!!! I never realized that I am now doing the same thing with my electric that I did with my acoustic. I never thought there was any other way to do an acoustic solo or duo.

[Coque]

Now that I have read all that you guys have written, I really want to pick up a Blonde.

Really.

[the_best_of_fools]

Anyone tried the VT Bass pedal? I'm thinking of getting one. Tech 21 just put out a version 2 that has a type of speaker emulation On/Off switch. Dunno if it's worth the extra 20 bucks...

[jeru]

I have an older Tri-AC preamp pedal, and through my keyboard amp (which used to be my mini PA) lately it is hissy.

VERY interesting thread -- thanks all for informative posts.

NEO -- I bought a Tri-AC a few years back on craig's list, sold it a week later because it hissed like a mofo -- just straight up unusable.

J

[concert410]

VERY interesting thread -- thanks all for informative posts.

NEO -- I bought a Tri-AC a few years back on craig's list, sold it a week later because it hissed like a mofo -- just straight up unusable.

J

I tried cranking the drive on my Sansamp GT-2 last weekend. I used the Fender model to do this because I am not a real high gain player. I didn't notice a lot of noise. I still like the drive turned way down on the high gain Marshall setup with classic mic'ing. That seems to work out fine for me.

[Coque]

Hey Concert410, I picked up a Sansamp Blonde online and want to use it direct to the PA for live performance. Currently, we use all in-ear monitors and I use my DRRI into an iso-cab that feeds the FOH pa. I am hoping that the Blonde will give my a "live amp" feel. This is all new to me as we just went to all in-ears in January. We've probably played 18 to 20 gigs with this rig and, although it's tricky to get used to, it has scored us a load of gigs. Sonically, we sound really great up front but i am sure tired of lugging my DRRI just to run in into an iso cab.
Since you have used it, can you tell me what to expect? Any advice on the subject would really help.

It should come in less than a week or so. I'm stoked. And so is my back.

[thegeezer]

No offense to anybody, but after using tube amps for nearly 45 years I don't think I will be changing over and I have a terrible back. I do use 15-20 watt amps though, which can't be imitated tone wise just sayin..

[Coque]

Dude, I get it. I have been a tube man for years and years. But after going through and ISO-box for 4 months, I wonder if it is merit-less in this situation. I LOVE playing through a tube amp more than anything else but once you throw in the in-ear monitors, the feel you get from the tube goodness flowing from the amp becomes negligible. I NEVER thought I would be looking for a reasonable substitute, but I think it's come to a head and don't know if lugging the amp and the iso cab (which is larger than the amp by far) is worth it. I'm looking into alternatives.