Rewiring a stereo 345 in mono

[Doc W]

I know, I know, it's a FENDER forum, but I get a lot of good advice from you guys, so I am now crossing the line into Gibson territory.

I have a 1961 ES 345 that has always sounded fantastic, except for the middle position (both pickups on). In this position, it is SOOOO thin - like I imagine a weasel fart might sound. I am guessing it is because I do not use the guitar in stereo.

I took it to a local repairman and once he got it open, he said forget it. He couldn't make head nor tail of it. He could get it working, sort of, but only with each volume acting as a master volume and each tone acting as a master tone.

Help! The wiring in these things is wierd in the first place. Do any of you have a wiring diagram for a non-stereo 345 with Varitone? Or, do you know of any repairmen in the Ottawa, Canada area who might be able to take a run at this?

[chuckocaster]

is this it?
http://www.gibson.com/Files/schematics/ES345.PDF

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Support/...ng%20Diagrams/

shouldn't be too hard. i don't know which model it would be but i'd imagine that any 2 hb type guitar with a varitone should do the trick.

no offense to the guy, but it shouldn't be TOO hard to rewire.

[steve25]

It seems to me that you would just have to short the two hot leads to each other at the input jack(s)

[Don]

Are the pickups on a vintage ES345 magnetically out of phase with each other?

[Doc W]

Chuck, I cannot get that link to work. It locks up then dies. Very frustrating.

As for in/out of phase, I have no idea. I am going to see the repair guy today and take some photos of the wiring.

I got a response on another newsgroup and it was not encouraging. So far, several people have said when you convert the jack to mono, both volume/tone controls act as a master. I am thinking of bypassing the Varitone altogether, just for now, so I can play the dang guitar while researching more.

[Doc W]

The link FINALLY worked, but that diagram is for a stereo. I need a mono-Varitone diagram.

[Don]

To see if the pickups are out of phase magnetically, grap a magnet off the fridge and see if the pickups both attract and/or repel the magnet the same.

An option to consider is to become a fan of T-Bone Walker, early BB King and Peter Green!

[Doc W]

To see if the pickups are out of phase magnetically, grap a magnet off the fridge and see if the pickups both attract and/or repel the magnet the same.

An option to consider is to become a fan of T-Bone Walker, early BB King and Peter Green!

Don, I have to confess that I don't get what you mean about becoming a fan of any of these guys. I already love T-Bone Walker and the early work of BB King, but neither one played a 345. I loved the sound BB King got on his 355 on the middle position, and that is what I am looking for, not the pinched weasel fart that is now emanating from my 345 (I wonder if he used a 335 on "Live at the Regal"?).

Explain yourself, my man!

[Don]

They're guitar's pickups were out of phase with each other. With both pickups combined and both volume controls set at the same level, the sounds was thin and nasal. By adjusting the volume controls separately, the sound became less thin and nasal and got more of a honky sound.

I've wired both of my Gibsons with a phase switch so I can get this sound when I want it (and avoid it when I don't!).

[chuckocaster]

they might be out of phase.

as for the wiring, switching it to a les paul style where the pickups go to the vol/tone circuit and then out to the switch. then from the switch output i'd tack on the varitone. should work.

http://alexplorer.net/guitar/mods/varitone.html

[Doc W]

UPDATE:

I did a lot of sniffing around on the web and found a hardcore of guys who think that the 345/55 stereo Varitone is the cat's ass. I also found quite a few youtube vids that show off the sound possibilities.

I used to play really loud to push the amp and get that early Clapton sound and the middle position never worked for me. I am thinking that now that I play much more quietly, I should explore this guitar a little more.

I think someone messed with it a little bit in the 70s and that might be part of the problem, so I am getting it wired the way it should be and I will experiment. I am going to use it in stereo and use the two channels of my Deluxe Reverb or Super Reverb. I have been told that the two channels on these amps are out of phase with each other so I don't have to put the guitar through two amps.

If I really can't get what I want, then I am just going to wire it like a 335 and be done with it.

I did discover while researching this that the 1965 album "B B King Live at the Regal" is still the best BB King album ever and still one of best live albums ever. I heard when it came out (because of Eric Clapton saying how great BB King was) when I was 15. Yah, it is still awesome. If you haven't heard it, buy it.

[Don]

That's great to hear. Sometimes it feels good just to let the instrument be what it is and play it for what it is.

I love "Live at the Regal". I really didn't enjoy BB King all that much until I heard his earlier live recordings.

[kaicho8888]

I just soldered the two leads together to make a mono. However, there is a loss of volume and tone when I select both pickups. The tone becomes very thin. You will notice the drop in volume if both volume are dialed to 10 on your guitar. If you turn both volume knobs down one at a time, you will notice that the volume will peak and then drop after about 8.5.... very strange indeed.

If I use a stereo cable with two separate amps, I get no loss in volume or tone. This is how I've played for years.

Howerver, if I use a stereo cable with one amp having two inputs, I get a very thin sound when both pickups are selected (switch in middle position). The amp inputs must be 180 degrees out of phase.

If you use an amp with two separate channels that are in phase...it works fine.

Others use a Bigshot ABY that has a phase switcher on it.

http://www.tonebone.com/re-bigshot-aby.htm

I just use the guitar as originally built to keep up the value.

[Doc W]

UPDATE

The 345 is finally sounding like a real guitar in the middle position. It wasn't the stereo feature or the Varitone causing the problem. It was a phase problem, as some of you said. The first repairman said the pickups were in phase but they clearly were not. I don't know how he determined that, but the guy who just fixed it checked with a magnet (he showed me how).

The pickups were like this (going from the front end of neck pickup to the back end of the bridge pickup): S-N S-N. They are supposed to be: S-N N-S. So he took the magnet out of the bridge pickup and switched it. The middle position now sounds fantastic. As I said, the guitar was already a monster on the front and back pups. Now the monster has a third head.

Just for the record for anyone in Ottawa and area, the technician who fixed it is Ian Vance of Lauzon's Music Center. FINALLY, I felt confident talking to a technician about this guitar after a lot of frustation. He definitely knew what he was talking about. He is very knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and very very personable. I highly recommend this man.

I may get it wired mono in the long run but for now, I am just enjoying it. You should hear it in a cranked 1970 Super Reverb. Stand back and hold onto something solidly anchored.

[Mars Hall]

I've been through this recently myself with my 63 ES345TD. I use the guitar as it was designed with a stereo Y cord and the OOP pu's. I plug into a 2 channel Fender amp to reverse the polarity of the pu's. Some like the sound, I too find it annoying.

I use my varitone switch quite a bit, but the circuit does load down the pu's a bit even in the 1st (bypass) position. There are those that swap out the varitone harness completely and install a kit more akin to how 335 or LP is set up. Our brothers over at the LPF call this procedure a "varitonectomy". Dr. Vintage offers a harness that's ready to drop in.

http://doctorvintage.com/drv1_controls_models.html

Go over to LPF and search the word "varitone", many good threads on the subject. It's amusing how heated the debate over removing the varitone can get over there. All my threads about my varitone adventure are there, it makes for an interesting read in and of itself. Same user name as I have here. Check it out if you haven't already.

[Doc W]

Mars, when I looked into the 345 problem, I discovered three basic camps of 345 owners:

1) those whose guitar sounded fine in the middle position, just like a 335

2) those whose guitar sounded like mine in the middle position but thought that they were supposed to sound that way

3) those whose guitar sounded like mine in the middle position but thought that something was wrong and that someone had probably messed with it at some point.

I was clearly in 3 and couldn't figure out why it sounded so crappy. I mean, BB King never sounded like in the middle position. The guy who fixed it said he strongly suspected that the mistake was made in the Gibson factory in 1961. He said that the pickup looked like it had not been tampered with and it still had the original tape around it.

Now, if he is RIGHT, and some guy at Gibson lost concentration and put the magnet in backwards, how many others have the same problem? I am guessing more than a few, based on the responses I got from a lot of guys who figured it was supposed to sound that way simply because it always did.

Whatever, the case, my guitar now lacks nothing in any position and makes my Deluxe Reverb bounce off the floor at 4 on the volume knob. I always liked the Varitone, except for the last few positions, and the bypass position on mine works just fine.

[Mars Hall]

I was clearly in 3 and couldn't figure out why it sounded so crappy. I mean, BB King never sounded like in the middle position. The guy who fixed it said he strongly suspected that the mistake was made in the Gibson factory in 1961. He said that the pickup looked like it had not been tampered with and it still had the original tape around it.

Now, if he is RIGHT, and some guy at Gibson lost concentration and put the magnet in backwards, how many others have the same problem? I am guessing more than a few, based on the responses I got from a lot of guys who figured it was supposed to sound that way simply because it always did.

From all that I've read, Gibson designed the guitars that way. Some have surmised that it was for the player who plugged into both channels of a 2 channel amp. This works only if one channel is 180 degrees out of phase with the other, which isn't the case on most tweeds and Marshalls.

There are those that alter there pu's that way on purpose, the most famous being Peter Green and Jimmy Page. It can be useful but you have to be careful not to have the volume controls at the same level or position, that's where you get the most cancellation. Back one or the other off a tad and the volume returns. I tweak my controls a lot when I play, so I don't find it an advantage. As long as I use the right amp or 2 amps the problem is of no consequence. On the occasion I do play through the "wrong" amp I can work around it.

[Doc W]

Mars, I tried everything you said. It sounded like shit and the volume completely dropped. I tried it through two amps. It sounded fine, except for the middle position. I tried playing with the volumes on the middle position. No effect. Still the AM radio duck sound. I played a recent Peter Green Les Paul and although I didn't like the sound, it was way better than my 345 with both pickups on. I wish you could have heard it.

Switching that magnet made all the difference in the world. That was the only change and now it sounds like a real guitar on the middle position. I simply cannot believe that Gibson intended for that guitar to sound the way it did with both pickups on.

[kaicho8888]

Hey yeah, mine is S-N, S-N...and the middle switch position is thin. I might try switching the magnet on the bridge like you mentioned...

thanks

[Mars Hall]

I played a recent Peter Green Les Paul and although I didn't like the sound, it was way better than my 345 with both pickups on. I wish you could have heard it.

Maybe the pu's in the PG LP are stronger than those in your 345, because that's how the PG mod came about, by flipping one of the magnets. Either way you like it now, so no fuss no muss.

Strange as it may be, everything I've read points to Gibson doing it on purpose, if you care to look it up, there is much about it on the LPF. Look under the "Other Gibsons" section.

[Doc W]

Mars, I find the whole damn thing quite mysterious. As I said, I talked to a fair number of 345/55 owners and there was no consensus on sound. Most who had thin-sounding middle positions just accepted it as the way it was (like me). Kaicho just said as much too. I don't know for a fact that Gibson messed up. It is just my working hypothesis. As for pickups, I have original PAF's in my 345 and they SCREAM, so it ain't the pickups.

BTW, I can't get into the Les Paul Forum. I registered but nothing so far...

Kaicho, I HIGHLY recommend the fix but get someone to do it unless you know your way around humbuckers. It can be a little tricky. I didn't do it myself. Please let us know what happens.

[Mars Hall]

BTW, I can't get into the Les Paul Forum. I registered but nothing so far...

It took me sending a follow up email here and at the LPF to get registered.

[kaicho8888]

Hey Doc W,
I disassembled the bridge pickup and rotated the magnet under the coils, soldered the cover back on and... S-N neck and N-S for the bridge.

Now the middle position is perfect... no thin sounding and the volume is the same for the bridge, neck, and bridge-neck. This using a stereo plug on the guitar end and a mono on the amp plug (soldered the two hot leads to the tip position of the plug).

Spent the last four hours playing with my new sounding vintage...damn love this ES-345 again with a single amp!

[Doc W]

kaicho, isn't the change INCREDIBLE? I spent a whole afternoon just playing on the middle position because it is so full, so big. I cannot believe some folks think it is supposed to sound thin.

To hell with 335's. While the last few positions on the Varitone are, to be honest, goofy, the first few are extremely useful. I play on the 2nd position for rhythm and when it is time to get serious, the bypass (position one) acts like a supercharger.

What year is your 345?

[kaicho8888]

kaicho, isn't the change INCREDIBLE? I spent a whole afternoon just playing on the middle position because it is so full, so big. I cannot believe some folks think it is supposed to sound thin.

To hell with 335's. While the last few positions on the Varitone are, to be honest, goofy, the first few are extremely useful. I play on the 2nd position for rhythm and when it is time to get serious, the bypass (position one) acts like a supercharger.

What year is your 345?

It's a 1967. I got it at Don Wehr's Music City in San Francisco...it's a hang out place for the oldie groups.

I just love the middle position (on position 1) and the convenience of the 2, and 3 positions. Though 3 is a little on the trebllie side. The 2 almost sound like a quaky Strat....jam'n on, buddy!

jesse

[Doc W]

Jesse

I got mine about 30 years ago for $850. I wanted one since I was a teen in the 60s. Mine is not in the greatest shape, but what a player. It makes just about any amp bark but it is especially gorgeous through my 1970 Super Reverb.

[kaicho8888]

DocW,
$850 30 years ago, wow...that's quite a jump in price. I got mine 43 years ago for $375 including tax. Even got invited to play at the old Winterland that weekend. Only regret is that I unwittingly threw out my battered case a few years ago!

[Doc W]

You bought it new? VERY cool! And the magnet was installed incorrectly? We should start a club.

[Mars Hall]

You bought it new? VERY cool! And the magnet was installed incorrectly? We should start a club.

If the magnet flips were by accident, why then don't we see it in other Gibson HB equiped guitars?

[kaicho8888]

My guess, Gibson made the ES-345 stereo out of phase on purpose so that you can use a single amp that has two channels, or you can use two separate amps. Most two channel amps had their channels 180 degree out of phase with each other....but who knows?

It was lots of fun having to separate amps...one for each side of the stage...switch it back and forth during a solo like a musical debate and argument!

[Don]

It was lots of fun having to separate amps...one for each side of the stage...switch it back and forth during a solo like a musical debate and argument!

That's cool! Does the audience appreciate it (do they notice?)?

[Doc W]

If the magnet flips were by accident, why then don't we see it in other Gibson HB equiped guitars?

Mars, THIS is the big question. Until Jesse said he bought his like that, I was really unsure. Perhaps some guitars with this problem were "Peter Green"'d somewhere along the line. I had talked to more than a few people online whose 345's had the same problem and the guy who repaired mine said it looked like it was like that from day one (original pickup tape intact).

So, if in fact some 345's and maybe 355's had this problem, then why not other Gibson models? I have not heard of this with a 335. So why not? I am assuming that Jesse didn't mod his guitar somewhere along the line.

If I could get into the Les Paul Forum, I would ask the question. I am really intrigued by this.

[Mars Hall]

Mars, THIS is the big question. Until Jesse said he bought his like that, I was really unsure. Perhaps some guitars with this problem were "Peter Green"'d somewhere along the line. I had talked to more than a few people online whose 345's had the same problem and the guy who repaired mine said it looked like it was like that from day one (original pickup tape intact).

So, if in fact some 345's and maybe 355's had this problem, then why not other Gibson models? I have not heard of this with a 335. So why not? I am assuming that Jesse didn't mod his guitar somewhere along the line.

If I could get into the Les Paul Forum, I would ask the question. I am really intrigued by this.

Mars, when I looked into the 345 problem, I discovered three basic camps of 345 owners:

1) those whose guitar sounded fine in the middle position, just like a 335

2) those whose guitar sounded like mine in the middle position but thought that they were supposed to sound that way

3) those whose guitar sounded like mine in the middle position but thought that something was wrong and that someone had probably messed with it at some point.

I still maintain that the 345's and 355's were done that way on purpose, although I haven't found any proof, at least online. The "mistakes" would be the varitone guitars that didn't get pu's out of phase.

Doc, leave a post about your problem getting on the LPF at the front desk here. It's what I had to do at LPF when I tried getting on here. Lily runs both forums.

[Don]

From the number of complaints that ES345s had OOP pickups, I'd say it was no accident.

[Doc W]

I still maintain that the 345's and 355's were done that way on purpose, although I haven't found any proof, at least online. The "mistakes" would be the varitone guitars that didn't get pu's out of phase.

I think that that is another possibility but I am not convinced (yet) because, even with a stereo jack and two amps, my guitar never sounded right to me. And now it looks as if there are others with the same complaint. But yah, it is a possibility that needs to be explored in more detail.

I love a mystery.

It would be great if someone reading this thread could go to their local guitar store and try a NEW 345/55 on the middle position and report back. I tried to do that but there are no stores within hours of here that have one in stock.

Doc, leave a post about your problem getting on the LPF at the front desk here. It's what I had to do at LPF when I tried getting on here. Lily runs both forums.

Thanks for the tip. Will do

[Mars Hall]

It would be great if someone reading this thread could go to their local guitar store and try a NEW 345/55 on the middle position and report back. I tried to do that but there are no stores within hours of here that have one in stock.

That's a good idea! I do some investigating in my area. Never will pass up a perfectly good reason to go to a music store to try out a new guitar. Did you check Gibson's website, is it mentioned there, about the ri's?

[kaicho8888]

Yeah...it's always been out of phase since it left the store smelling like newly sprayed nitro. Back then I didn't mind hauling two amps...the bigger the better...or I used my blonde Bandmaster. Most of the time I just lived with a lower volume in the middle and not use it as much.

By the way, with two amps on each side of the stage...I don't think anybody knew what was going on...probably most of the audience were having too "good" a time to notice or even care...just make loud distorted noise..ala' Jimi Hendricks...lol.