Playing Blues as Jazz

[NDRU]

Anyone here use a modal approach to playing blues?

Certainly minor pentatonic blues is one of the first and most useful things I learned on guitar.

But lately I have been trying to add the more complex way of looking at blues--like I IV & V chords in a blues progression are really three different keys. Since they are often all played as dominant seventh chords, technically you could say each chord is in a different key.

So in a G Blues, the I chord is technically the V of C, the IV is the V of F, the V is the V of G.

Or you could look at it modally and play mixolydian over each chord--G mixolydian over the G chord, C mixolydian over the C chord, etc.

I know I did not invent this, so forgive my explanation sounding as if I discovered something new (and I know my technical descriptions may not be totally accurate to theorists). But it has given me a huge new challenge to blues to try to add this to my playing (though I have always done it to some small degree). To do it you have to be able to transition between three keys in any given position, and the key changes happen quite often.

[Cogs]

So in a G Blues, the I chord is technically the V of C, the IV is the V of F, the V is the V of G.

Or you could look at it modally and play mixolydian over each chord--G mixolydian over the G chord, C mixolydian over the C chord, etc.

That amounts to the same thing, imo.
My playing took on a different color after my instructor told me to consider them all as V chords.

[NDRU]

That amounts to the same thing, imo.
My playing took on a different color after my instructor told me to consider them all as V chords.

you're right, it's just two different ways to say/visualilze the same thing

I think the challenge is to make it musical. For example, when do you switch to the ol' minor pentatonic to keep it sounding bluesy & not like too much noodling? Assuming it is blues that you're playing, and not jazz

[ES350]

Blues is one of those strongly idiomatic things that do not allow for a lot of messing about. In it's strongest and deepest form, it does not need filagree. If you want to play jazz, learn some standards with more than 3 chords...that's the language of that idiom.

[NDRU]

oh, sorry to be breaking the rules!

[Cogs]

I think that would all depend on the kind of blues you are playing.

[bignote]

Listen to Robben Ford play the "Blues" Or Scofield. Heavy jazz influences there I think.

[Cogs]

I'm heavily into Kenny Burrell right now. He's a another great example of playing blues w/a jazz sensibility (or vice versa if you want to look at it that way).
Want your head twisted right off your shoulders? Listen to Bill Frisell play Blues For Los Angeles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GzMlxjaSmQ

[ES350]

yes, it does depend on the kind of blues you are playing...if it makes the music stronger, great.

[NDRU]

yes, it does depend on the kind of blues you are playing...if it makes the music stronger, great.

...or what kind of jazz you are playing, right? Miles Davis & Louis Armstrong have played jazz over blues progressions.

[NDRU]

I was messing with this, and surprisingly playing the mixolydian over the V chord (playing G major over D7 chord in a G blues) sounded the worst of the three.

Weird since that is the dominant chord in the progression. I guess G Major is not the most bluesy sounding scale for a blues in G.

[Cogs]

This might sound like I'm splitting hairs but don't think of it as playing G major over the D; try playing a D major scale w/a flatted 7th. It's really the same thing but your perspective is different.

[NDRU]

This might sound like I'm splitting hairs but don't think of it as playing G major over the D; try playing a D major scale w/a flatted 7th. It's really the same thing but your perspective is different.

to continue to split hairs, isn't that the Mixolydian over the V chord?

I hear you, I'm doing that, or more specifically, trying to look at it from the perspective of the notes of the D7 chord, with a scale built around them.

I only say G Major as a way to explain what it actually is (in case anyone else doesn't get the modes).

[Cogs]

All I'm saying is that G major sounds plenty bluesy to me over the V chord. It just depends on how you phrase it. I guess the most bluesy sounding scale over any chord in a 12 bar blues in G would be the G minor pentatonic w/an added b5.

[redb]

Want your head twisted right off your shoulders? Listen to Bill Frisell play Blues For Los Angeles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GzMlxjaSmQ

The one thing I'm most grateful to this site for is an introduction to Bill Frisell. Upon hearing his music, I bought his book and honestly I can't see wanting to play anything else.

One thing I have always wanted to do more of is to use more chord shapes and triads in playing melodies as opposed to simply diddling around a scale and Frisell is really, really good at that. I think in a way that is not totally dissimilar?

I guess what it comes down to is where do you draw the line at where blues ends? I will concede, though, that the guys who started the whole blues thing weren't super hip on music theory. At least, I think it's more accurate to say they understood it at a practical level much more than the theoretical level and that's why blues is such an emotional music experience.

btw I really like Miles Davis' playing, especially on Elevator to the Gallows (fantastic movie too, actually). There's a lot to be learned from that material, imo.

[Cogs]

What book is that?

[elicross]

You guys shame me with your knowledge of theory. I should stay out of the woodshed.

[pseudocat]

One of my teachers was a blues guy who went on to jazz, so he spent a lot of time with me on this kind of thing. His advice? Before venturing too far afield of the minor/major pentatonics, consider two things:

1) Who are you playing with? How comfortable are they with stepping outside the old tried and true formula? If they're not too comfortable with it, don't go there, or it stops the flow of musical communication. He likened this to reading comprehension -- if th reader reads at an 8th grade level, don't write at a PhD. level, or you won't understand each other very well.

2) Who are you playing for? The same concepts apply here, but with perhaps even more importance. I went to hear Allan Holdsworth, Jeff Berlin, and Chad Wackerman one evening, and they were all over the map, melodically, harmonically, and rhythmically. After about 3 tunes, my brain hurt -- and I love "outside" stuff.

Sometimes, sticking to pentatonics, and just tossing a very light sprinkling of other stuff in is perfect. Robben Ford does this quite well, IMO.

Just my $.02

[refin]

It's not what scale you use..........it's how you use the scale.

[Cogs]

lol! My last instructor told me, "There's no such thing as a 'wrong note', only the wrong time to play it."

[melody]

Best advice I ever got was to stop thinking where you're going with the music just let it flow.

[Offshore Angler]

One of my teachers was a blues guy who went on to jazz, so he spent a lot of time with me on this kind of thing. His advice? Before venturing too far afield of the minor/major pentatonics, consider two things:

1) Who are you playing with? How comfortable are they with stepping outside the old tried and true formula? If they're not too comfortable with it, don't go there, or it stops the flow of musical communication. He likened this to reading comprehension -- if th reader reads at an 8th grade level, don't write at a PhD. level, or you won't understand each other very well.

2) Who are you playing for? The same concepts apply here, but with perhaps even more importance. I went to hear Allan Holdsworth, Jeff Berlin, and Chad Wackerman one evening, and they were all over the map, melodically, harmonically, and rhythmically. After about 3 tunes, my brain hurt -- and I love "outside" stuff.

Sometimes, sticking to pentatonics, and just tossing a very light sprinkling of other stuff in is perfect. Robben Ford does this quite well, IMO.

Just my $.02

Well, yes and no. I mean, doesn't everyone love Danny Gatton? Or Robben Ford? These cats know ( or in Danny's case knew) their jazz.


I don't believe an audience needs to be trained to appreciate music. When Elton John moves from the I to the Vmaj7 in Your Song, do you need a music education to hear it's the same old change but played differently? Nope. It just sounds beautiful.

[pseudocat]

Well, yes and no. I mean, doesn't everyone love Danny Gatton? Or Robben Ford? These cats know ( or in Danny's case knew) their jazz.


I don't believe an audience needs to be trained to appreciate music. When Elton John moves from the I to the Vmaj7 in Your Song, do you need a music education to hear it's the same old change but played differently? Nope. It just sounds beautiful.

Agreed, because it's not too outside the box. But solo over the top in superlocrian, and you'll lose a lot of people.

I think even the most curmudgeonly listener can appreciate a little messin' around from time to time.

[ES350]

As long as it works...

[Offshore Angler]

Agreed, because it's not too outside the box. But solo over the top in superlocrian, and you'll lose a lot of people.
.

Tell that to Satriani. It's a staple of his.

It is blues friendly when played over altered dominate chords, like the ever-popular 7b5 that we all like. So really, why not use it for blues? It all depends on the bass line anyways.

[Cogs]

Listen to Pat Metheny & John Scofield as they solo throughout You Speak My Language off of I Can See Your House From Here. Definitely a lot of outside playing, lol.

[NDRU]

One of my teachers was a blues guy who went on to jazz, so he spent a lot of time with me on this kind of thing. His advice? Before venturing too far afield of the minor/major pentatonics, consider two things:

1) Who are you playing with? How comfortable are they with stepping outside the old tried and true formula? If they're not too comfortable with it, don't go there, or it stops the flow of musical communication. He likened this to reading comprehension -- if th reader reads at an 8th grade level, don't write at a PhD. level, or you won't understand each other very well.

2) Who are you playing for? The same concepts apply here, but with perhaps even more importance. I went to hear Allan Holdsworth, Jeff Berlin, and Chad Wackerman one evening, and they were all over the map, melodically, harmonically, and rhythmically. After about 3 tunes, my brain hurt -- and I love "outside" stuff.

Sometimes, sticking to pentatonics, and just tossing a very light sprinkling of other stuff in is perfect. Robben Ford does this quite well, IMO.

Just my $.02

true, and I am not trying to do crazy stuff, but you can use simple stuff in more interesting ways.

Case in point, you mentioned Robben Ford. On one of his videos he explains using (in a G Blues) a D minor pentatonic over the V chord (D7) Or adding the sharp sixth (E in this case) to a G minor pentatonic scale.

Simple concepts, but can really add some color to your playing.

[pauln]

To answer a question above, many that jazz up the blues like to finish their solo by reverting back to straight pentatonic in the last phrase; Kenny Burrell is a good example.

After all the complex voicing, subs, and alterations of a solo, going back to pentatonic helps "restore" the blues tonality, and its a polite gesture to the next soloist in a "it's all cleaned up and I'm handing it over to you now" kind of way...