New PA Ideas

[Coque]

I currently have a Soundcraft Gigrack 1000 and two Community speakers (15" woofer and a horn) as my rehearsal/small gig PA. I have never been very pleased with the sound or the efficiancy of the set-up.
What small but potent PA can you guys reccomend for rehearsals and small gigs?

[Rickenjangle]

It depends on how much $$ you want to spend, but if I were putting something together it would probably be based on a non-powered mixer and a pair of powered 12/horns on stands and a single, small powered sub.

[Coque]

That sounds about right. I was thinking a Makie unpowered mixer, an amp of some sorts and them a sub and some good sepakers. No, I don't wanna spend a fortune.

Small though, Smaller is better so long as it's efficient. I used to rehearse at a guy's house that had a B-52 set up that no one could hear. Yes, it was small and cheap but ineffective. That I want to avoid.

[Kap'n]

Maybe mine was an anamoly, but I found my small Mackie mixer (DFX-6?) to be really low output. I think the Yamaha MG series are superior both in sound and output.

In any case, what you gain in light weight from powered speakers, you lose in having to run power cables everywhere.

My rig is simply an unpowered mixer, a QSC power amp in a 'wheeled luggage' style rack, and a bunch of Turbosound 12" monitors. They work well as mains or monitors, and I mix and match to the occaision. i don't bother with subs, as I'm not usually running kick or bass through it.

[Wilko]

Why no love for the powered mixers?

They are very versatile, allow for the use of almost any speakers and are loaded with features.

The weak point of most PAs (IMNSHO) is the inefficiency of speakers and the crappy sound of the all important midrange. Get a set of three way PA speakers. you can't beat them for small spaces.

Oh, forget that "smiley face" EQ setting that everyone pushes. In rehearsals usually you're only micing vocals. Vocals are all mids you want the mids to come forward and stay there. That's where the voice is.

[Kap'n]

Why no love for the powered mixers?

They are very versatile, allow for the use of almost any speakers and are loaded with features.

The weak point of most PAs (IMNSHO) is the inefficiency of speakers and the crappy sound of the all important midrange. Get a set of three way PA speakers. you can't beat them for small spaces.

Oh, forget that "smiley face" EQ setting that everyone pushes. In rehearsals usually you're only micing vocals. Vocals are all mids you want the mids to come forward and stay there. That's where the voice is.

A good powered mixer is nice, but most 'box' mixers have pretty low end power amps.

You're right about the speakers, though. Good speakers, like in guitar amps, make the difference between mediocre and good to excellent sound. I had a pair of unpowered JBL EON 1500 speakers, and I had no idea how much they were holding back my sound until I upgraded.

Also about the EQ settings. If you have decently linear equipment, run everything flat, and only notch stuff out if there's an issue. PA EQ is there to fix room problems, not "improve" sound that already sucks.

[Coque]

Just when I was thinking powered speakers would be a better choice, Kap made it clear I'd have a sea of power cables to deal with.
I think most powered mixers are underpowered (my 1000 watt gigrack does not seem to ever threaten the power it boasts) and a good poweramp and small mixer would be a good solution, the question is, which one. I agree, speakers are usually the least efficient part of the equation and until you've spent the money, it's hard to know what works.

As such, any specifics (brands, models) might be useful in putting together a better small PA.

[Kap'n]

As I mentioned the MG series Yamaha mixers sound pretty nice for the dough.

For power amps, I'd go with QSC or Crown. In the QSC line the RMX stuff sounds pretty good, but now I wish I'd sprung for the PLX, as they're half the weight. If possible get the ones that can handle 2 ohm loads, as you always end up in a situation when you'll want it, especially if you pool PA gear with another band for outdoor gigs.

The speakers I've got are the Turbosound TXD-12M as both mains and monitors, which sound pretty darn nice for the money, and are pretty portable, but they're kind of hard to find, since GC dropped the line. I also had a connection with their former distributor, so I got them rather inexpensively.

I'm sure there are other great speaker options, I just am not well versed in PA cabs.

[Coque]

Thanks Kap!

I checked out both the QSC amps and the Yamaha mixer; looks cost effective and solid quality. I was thinking of getting a mixer I could use double-duty for my DAW. I know Mackie is now offering a mixer with a USB or Firewire out that could be used to record direct to a laptop at a live gig or as an interface with the DAW.
The new Mackie Onyx series seems to be a real winner. Anythoughts?

[rudutch]

I have used a yamaha emx660 for several years, no problems. If we needed more power we added a monster power amp and some speakers

[CzarSketch]

The Mackie Onyx line has a great reputation--we upgraded from their VLZ line in my campus's main performance space and there was an instant positive difference in "mixability," if that's a word. I didn't personally mix at the board, though, I was mostly positioning speakers/assisting musicians, and I heard vast improvements in the presence of mic'ed pianos and acoustic guitars--not exactly sure why.

Our power box had 2 mono QSC power amps which really didn't provide the juice we needed--they were the lowest end models and a poor choice for the 15" + horn JBL mains we had, and hooking up more than one monitor at a time (a set of old yamahas that you literally could not read the model on due to how scuffed up they were) caused unbearable distortion at decent listening levels. It was always a struggle to get everything working correctly, and at some point we were forced to restrict musicians to using on-stage amplifiers for acoustic instruments in order to reserve enough power for vocal amplification through the PA.

Regarding powered mains, I've gotten really good results using the Mackie powered 12" + horns. They're great if all you need is to mic vocals in particular, and have a small footprint. I wouldn't use them to try and mic the entire band, though.

[Rickenjangle]

Kap'n is correct about the power cables - but here's the flip side of that coin:

since there is a power amp for each speaker, and the power amp is with the speaker (so you don't lose power over long cable runs, and is designed to be just right for the speaker, you don't have to have speaker cables, but just good balanced instrument cables...and a couple of extra extension cords that (if they get ruined) can be replaced for $3.99 each.

I guess any way you slice it there are limits to how small you can go...I just know that I have great results with my old Peavey 600 watt stereo head and 2 mains/2 wedges, but it's all heavy and probably powered speakers would be cleaner overall...

Plus, you can keep adding powered speakers as your needs grow without worrying about impedence...

[Coque]

So I've been reviewing and researching all of your suggestions and I feel I've come up with an elegant solution. Removing gig worthiness from the equation, I think what I'm gonna do for rehearsals is use a Mackie 1620i mixer, mic everythng and use a headphone distribution amp to feed all the players a mix of all the instruments. The only thing anyone outside the place will hear is the drums and guitar amp. The bass will go direct as will the vox mics. Using the noise cancelling Shure earbuds it should also help bring the drums and cymbals to a reasonable level. The Mackie also has a Firewire out that I can run straight into Protools with either a stero mix or each individual track.
I have played at way-too-loud rehearsals for so many years and I feel this will prove I may (may) be maturing. I don't need the mega-volume to feel rock and roll's power, I just need the music.

Do any of you all rehearse usings headphones/earbuds instead of monitors or speakers?

[Offshore Angler]

I'd go with the Crowns. Like Kap'n, I haven't encountered any powered mixers that sound "right".

And I agree too, that the speakers are critical. Personally, I like JBL's.

[FrankJohnson]

I pieced together a small PA that I use because our Drummer ALWAYS wants to bring RACKS and RACKS of Equipment and WAY TOO MUCH in cabs. We were using Community 4-15 bottoms and 4-12 tops for small rooms. My back was killing me! We had 3 power amps around 1000 watts each and effects out the wazoo.....and it was being run way out of control. I didn't know how to do anything with it and it was just crazy. Set up was about 2 hours and just never fit the space - and when we did outside gigs, it was loud alright, but I never liked its sound. we still use it for large venues, but I provide the small - med room PA now.

I had some old equipment that I traded for a Peavey non-powered mixer, which is surprisingly clean, and they are very inexpensive. not as high end as many nicer ones, but very clean.

I picked up an older DOD EQ, a set of JBL JRX112M monitors, which we use as vocal tops, and/or monitors depending on whats going on. Drummer also has a set of these, so we have 4 at our disposal.

I Use my QSC PLX1602 for mains and monitors, when I need to or an old set of Crate power amps - about 400 watts each. they are actually good in small - to small/med rooms.

I picked up a set of older Yamaha 10" monitors locally about 2 years ago VERY cheap - that are VERY nice. Very articulate.

I think board, amps, cables, EQ, etc. I have enough that I could have bought a nice set up, but I got each very inexpensively and they multi task. The QSC is actually my Bass amp usually - but I use an old Peavey T Max when it is used in the PA.

We are using the PA without Subs for now, so its not a big-boy system - but we have been putting guitars through when needed, and a ever so slight touch of kick. It seems to have held up fine.

All that being said, I have a friend who just got the newer Carvin ultralite system, and speakers. VERY nice. Cost effective, and very light too. I liked it and would get one in a heartbeat. If your not looking at a huge system, It is clean, has headroom, and great features.

I think this is the one he had - not huge power, but it was VERY adequate, and clean.
http://www.carvinguitars.com/product...XP1000L&cid=12


My .02