Strat with Trem: When string bending the others detune

[5er Driver]

I use .010 -.046 strings, bend up full step, and don’t use the whammy bar. At the moment the trem is unblocked, has 3 springs, and is about 1/8“ off the deck. As I said in the thread title, when I bend a string or 2 the others detune to where I can’t play a chord that’s in tune. I really don’t want to block the trem. To stiffen it up I suppose I need to add 2 more springs. However, I don’t want the action to change up or down and still want the trem an 1/8” off the deck. So when I fit the 2 extra springs do I just adjust the claw to compensate for the change in action? I’d hate to have to adjust the height of the individual saddles………...Will the trem then be stiff enough that string bending will not detune the other strings?

Thanks.

[Offshore Angler]

You got it. Put in the extra springs and adjust the claw so you are where you want to be with the bridge. Should take oh, 5 minutes.

Or, you can just bend the other strings simultaneously to compenstate. Or push down on them to sharp them, or pinky the bar, or pull back on the neck, or...

I guess what I'm saying is - changing the guitar won't change technique. Take a Tele, if you wonk on the G string it will pull the neck and drop the other strings slightly. So you need to compensate without using the trem.

[Don]

I set my trem so that it's almost flat to the body. I use a guitar pick between the bridge and body to set it up. This way, it seems that the strings have less of a mechanical advantage on the bridge and it doesn't move as much when I bend. Also. when the bridge does move, I can hold it down without the fear of the pitch going too high.

[Offshore Angler]

I set my trem so that it's almost flat to the body. I use a guitar pick between the bridge and body to set it up. This way, it seems that the strings have less of a mechanical advantage on the bridge and it doesn't move as much when I bend. Also. when the bridge does move, I can hold it down without the fear of the pitch going too high.

This again points out the superiority of the two point bridge over the vintage. On a two point you can set the bridge completely flat and then raise and lower the posts to get the action. It completely eliminates the mechanical advantage issue Don refers to on a vintage.

[boobtube21]

Never thought of the "mechanical advatange" of having the bridge set flatter, that's a good point.

I was just going to suggest, in addition to adjusting the trem, make sure your nut is cut properly too. If your strings are sticking in the nut slots they still won't always return to correct pitch even with the trem adjusted perfectly.

Get it set up right and people will be amazed what you can do with your strat's tremelo and still stay in tune. A lot of people don't seem to think it can be done.

[rudutch]

I hate sticky nuts

[melody]

[Guitar_Mc]

I don't like to float strat bridges. I just crank down the springs & the claw. My G&L Legacy floats, and I have the same detuning issue when I bend a string.

I never have these issues with my teles when I play out!

[Mesotech]

Actually this 'issue' is one of the charms of a Strat. Without this issue, you can't ever get the Sweet Home Alabama solo to sound right.

My experience with additional springs on the trem seems to indicate a stiffer 'feel' with a snappier return to zero. But as long as the bridge is floating on balance between string tension and spring tension, as soon as one or the other changes (like bending a string) the other strings will detune. The only way I've found to keep this from happening is to either block the trem so it won't move, or tighten the claw so upward-bends on the trem are not possible. The number of springs really don't matter much to counteract this issue. The number of springs are used to address other aspects of playability instead.

[Offshore Angler]

I respectfully beg to differ. The resistance in the bridge is nkX, where n is the number of springs, K is the spring constant for a single spring, and X is how far they are stretched.
So to counteract a pull such as a string bend, the distance the bridge moves when comparing 3 to 5 strings, is the ratio of the number of springs. So a the 5 spring version will only move 3/5ths (aka 60percent) of the distance it will with 3.

Actually, distance will even be slightly less because of the geomety, but you get the idea.

[rudutch]

IThe resistance in the bridge is nkX, where n is the number of springs, K is the spring constant for a single spring, and X is how far they are stretched.
So to counteract a pull such as a string bend, the distance the bridge moves when comparing 3 to 5 strings, is the ratio of the number of springs. So a the 5 spring version will only move 3/5ths (aka 60percent) of the distance it will with 3.

you wouldn't happen to be an engineer, would you? (lol)

[Mesotech]

Well, despite the math, you've missed the point entirely. The fact that ANY movement occurs at all is enough to tip the balance of a balanced trem. Once that happens, things go out of tune because either string tenstion takes over, or spring tension takes over. The number of springs affects how fast the trem will return to balance one the tensions are supposedly equal again. If the trem is set to one side (such as tight against the body) then I would tend to agree that the additional springs help reduce the chance of going out of tune during a bend because there's more resistance to overcome.

You can build as big of a dam as you want, but once water starts flowing over the top, the other side still gets wet....

[bignote]

+1 on lubing the string slots on the nut. Other than that the only advice I can offer is "shut up n play yer guitar!" this has plagued the strat players for a while now. Good luck and let us know what you discover as the cure.

[Offshore Angler]

Meso, what I'm saying is we can minimize the effect with spring rate. Like I said earlier, even on a Tele you get a bit of de-tuning on a bend. The sum of the forces will be zero, so if the string force is increased, someting else needs to add a force in the opposing direction. In the case of a Tele, it's the neck.

On a Les Paul or 335 it's not as pronouced because of the lower string tension, but if you listen you can still hear it.

If you do the math it's pretty amazing how much the string bend increases the tension of the bent string. If you push with 8 ounces of force and the string deflected 2 degrees, (I'm making up numbers here but they seem in the ballpark) the tension in the string would increase by a little over 14 pounds! Something is going to move.

When you start dividing by the sine of small angles things get big in a hurry.

I'm putting forth my argument in facts and mathmatics in a quantitative manner, I think what you are speaking of are the qualitative effects. Just two different ways of looking at things, really.

[dzguitar10]

"Ur talkin' gibberish" Lenny Haise (Steve Zohn) from "That Thing You Do".

Kidding aside... I've always play tremolo equipped guitars onstage as well as fixed bridge guitars and I just bend the bejesus out of the strings... and I never worry about whether it's going to chord properly.
I do know that they're not going to intonate while doing any bending... and therefore I never attempt to play chords while bending one or more strings. I guess if you're trying to get a simulated pedal steel sound or something it'd be an issue otherwise it don't bother me... I just keep on "spankin' the plank"

[boobtube21]

Pedal steel guitar players deal with this issue all the time too, they call it "cabinet drop". You hit a pedal or knee lever to raise or lower the pitch of one string, and something else if not everything else goes wonky.

[jrgtr42]

Out of curiosity, if you don;t use the bar, why do you keep it floating?
I very rarely use mine, so I keep the bridge flat down, springs tightened just enough so it doesn;t rattle when I bend.
I figure that I can use string bending to go up in pitch, when I have the bar in, that will work to go down.

[Offshore Angler]

Out of curiosity, if you don;t use the bar, why do you keep it floating?
I very rarely use mine, so I keep the bridge flat down, springs tightened just enough so it doesn;t rattle when I bend.
I figure that I can use string bending to go up in pitch, when I have the bar in, that will work to go down.

The Stratocaster ( and it's clones) has one thing no other guitar has - a built-in reverb tank. And you can adjust it. Remove springs and it gets more 'verby, add them and it tightens up the sound. When you block you remove that, and when you kerang a big power chord or spank a blue note, you loose that shimmer which is part of the quintisential Strat sound that distinguishes it from all other guitars. Some players don't get into that style of playing. For example, Jimi and SRV's classic Strat tones are characterized by the boingy bridge sound when they dug in. Clapton, on the other hand, always had a tighter, more focused sound. Jimi and SRV had floating trems, Clapton has a blocked trem.

[Guitar_Mc]

My amp has a built-in reverb tank.
And I can adjust it.

[Wilko]

WHy is this even an "issue"?

Who actually plays a bend, with other notes heard for long enough, or complex enough that anyone would ever notice or be bothered by it?

The effect of "detuning" is far less than innaccurate playing will do, and is well within the range of desired tremolo to keep the vocal quality full.

[5er Driver]

WHy is this even an "issue"?

Because it dosen't happen on my cheap ass bought used Epiphone LP or SG but does on $2500 Fender Custom Shop Strat bought new.

Thanks for all the great info. I didn't want to deck the trem in fear of losing any tone characteristics of the floating trem and damaging the finish under the bridge. I'll try the full compliment of 5 springs, if that's no real solution for me then I'll deck the trem.

[Don]

Because it dosen't happen on my cheap ass bought used Epiphone LP or SG but does on $2500 Fender Custom Shop Strat bought new.

If your cheap ass Epiphones had floating tremolos they'd have this problem.

Other than adding a device on your guitar, like a Hipshot Tremsetter, you will always have this problem to some degree if you float the tremolo on any guitar. It's the nature of the beast.

[melody]

Just play that bitch...Just say-en.