What's the deal w/minor II V Is?

[Cogs]

All the guitar materials I've seen list minor II V Is as (for example):
D-7b5 / / / l G7 / / / l C-7 / / / l / / / / l
Wouldn't the V chord be a G-7 if you are harmonizing the scale using a C aeolian (Eb major) scale? What gives?

[pc]

Kind of the whole reason for the existence of any ii V I or ii V i is for tension and release. Jazz harmony just wants us to hear that lovely B natural resolving either up a half step to the tonic of the Cm7 chord, or down a half-step to the 7th of the Cm7 chord.

The ii7b5 to V7b9 is entirely based around the tonic chords harmonic minor scale anyway, not really the aeolian scale.

C - D - Eb - F - G - Ab - B - C

(All the notes in the chords you listed are in that scale. Think of it more as a method of tension and release rather than simply relating to the Cm7 target chord's usual scalar ideas.

[Jonnda]

Just checking if I got this straight. In music theory we usually raised the third of a v that would normally be a v in a minor key, to make it a major V. We learned that composers tend to borrow from all the forms of minor and can switch around as they find suitable.

[Cogs]

The ii7b5 to V7b9 is entirely based around the tonic chords harmonic minor scale anyway, not really the aeolian scale.

C - D - Eb - F - G - Ab - B - C

You... you gotta gift

[chuckocaster]

Just checking if I got this straight. In music theory we usually raised the third of a v that would normally be a v in a minor key, to make it a major V. We learned that composers tend to borrow from all the forms of minor and can switch around as they find suitable.

the goal is V to I. so yeah, it's right. take enough theory classes and they'll be tellin' ya "use your ear, and do what sounds right." i used to sit in the back of theory class and read my guitar mags... funny part is i had the highest grade in the class. go figure.

[Jonnda]

I'd never be able to get away with that, especially for music theory 4 with the stuff like augmented sixth chords- basically when you hit the late romantic period anything goes and nothing has to be all that logical anymore. Theory 1 & 2 were nice, theory 3 added spice, then 4 hit and all hell breaks loose toward the end with 12 tone music (which is more math then music IMHO). I still need to retake theory 4.

[clayville]

"use your ear, and do what sounds right."

Sadly, perhaps, that's the only theory I've got.

[Cogs]

But I don't always WANT to do what sounds right. Sometimes I want to sound like I'm crashing through a dark house after the furniture has been rearranged, finally winding up in my favorite chair holding a glass of milk & not a drop spilled, lol

[chuckocaster]

that's the point, you can do whatever you want. learning all this theory stuff just lets you put a name to cool harmonic twists.

[Jonnda]

yeah, it also lets you start to understand how things are made so you can make for yourself.

[Doc W]

Just checking if I got this straight. In music theory we usually raised the third of a v that would normally be a v in a minor key, to make it a major V. We learned that composers tend to borrow from all the forms of minor and can switch around as they find suitable.

This is a really tiny point, but you don't raise the third of the V; rather, the minor scale has a raised 7th which becomes the major third in V.

Like this: take the key of A minor. The A minor scale uses the same key signature as C major, that is, no sharps, no flats. If you build the V chord from this scale you get EGB which is E minor. This is why the 7th degree of the scale is raised to G#, i.e., to ensure that V is major so you can do a perfect cadence (V-I). At the time this theory was evolving, the perfect cadence had become the most important harmonic change in western music. You really needed it in the minor key. But you also use that G# in every other chord based on the scale, so the chords in the minor key, based on the harmonic minor, are Am, Bdim, Caug, Dm, E, F, Gdim.

I know that reads a little like a brain teaser, but if you sit down with the guitar and fool with it, you will see what I mean. And remember, theory always follows practice in music.

Then there is the melodic minor scale, and as someone said here, by the time you get into the late 19th century, it gets all wierd.