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Thread: More chord stuff:

  1. #1
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    More chord stuff:

    So what's the deal w/the ubiquitous -7b5 going to the 7b9 chord? I swear I keep seeing this; it's in On Green Dolphin Street (B-7b5 to E7b9), it's in Misty (G-7b5 to C7b9), & it's in Satin Doll (E-7b5 to A7b9). Is this just a favorite couplet of a particular transcriber or is there something else going on here? I do know that oftentimes you can substitute a diminished chord for the 7b9 but that doesn't help me to figure out what kind of rule (if any) is going on here.
    Any ideas?

  2. #2
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    Re: More chord stuff:

    Cogs those chords are resolving to a minor chord, and you're using that chords "scale" to build them. In this case it's always the harmonic minor scale, a very common scale in Jazz music.

    For example:

    When resolving to a major chord, you see || Dm7 | G7 | C ||
    That's because the notes in a C major scale are still contained in the Dm7 and G7 chord. C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C
    Dm7 is spelled D - F - A - C
    G7 is spelled G - B - D - F
    (I realize that's all obvious, but you're using this idea in the next example)...

    When going to a minor chord, you're using those tones instead:
    || Dm7b5 | G7b9 | Cm ||
    The Cm scale being used here is the harmonic minor scale: C - D - Eb - F - G - Ab - B - C
    Dm7b5 is spelled D - F - Ab - C
    G7b9 is spelled G - B - D - Ab

    I'd hazard a guess that you'll never see those two chords you're asking about in jazz charts unless the next chord is a minor chord, and it's almost always going to be the 'i' chord if you think of those two as being ii and V. I mentioned before that the ii - V- I is the most important progression in Jazz music, and all you're seeing there is the minor variant of that same progression. The point here is that they aren't necessarily the ii and the V of the key your whole song is in, just the ii and the V as they relate to the "target chord" they're going to.

    Make sense?

  3. #3
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    Re: More chord stuff:

    I can't believe I didn't see that! You are right, though: In Misty, the next or "target" chord is F-7; In Green Dolphin St. it's A-7; & in Satin Doll it's... you guessed it: D-7. I also just noticed it in Autumn Leaves, going from F#-7b5 to B7b9 & ending on an E- or E-7.
    So this is a cool spot to go to the harmonic minor scale in the key of whatever "five" chord you are leading to.
    As to the diminished chord, this one has me a little perplexed because I don't know how it works, I just know that every time I try it it seems to fit. The first b9 chord I learned was quite a stretch:
    5X532X (A7b9)
    so I'd sub this chord:
    3X232X (G°7 I think)
    Any idea what's going on there?

  4. #4
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    Re: More chord stuff:

    Any dominant, flat9 chord is also a diminshed chord a half step higher.

    I.e.,
    A7b9 is A - C#-E - G - Bb
    Bbdim7 is Bb - Db(C#) - Fb (E) and Abb (G) (Same chord without the A root).

    Because you can repeat a diminished chord form every four frets:
    XX2323 = XX5656 = XX8989 = XX11-12-11-12
    All of these are the same Bbdim chord.

    That also means that:
    Edim7 = Gdim7 = Bbdim7 = C#dim7
    (which explains why your substitution above works)

    And, therefore, also means that:
    A7b9 = C7b9 = Eb7b9 = F#7b9

    Cool, huh?

  5. #5
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    Re: More chord stuff:

    I love these threads. They remind me of college. mostly a class I had called "modern guitar theory".

    We'd always have these long QA periods where these questions would come up. one example always led into another. Always followed by that audible "Duh!" as the lights came on.

  6. #6
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    Re: More chord stuff:

    Oh yes, VERY cool. It might be awhile before I can develop these concepts & express them in my playing naturally, but in the meantime I'm just going to hammer away at 'em until they become 2nd nature.

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