Fender Hot Rod Deluxe - Repair Nightmare

[Psychorelic]

Help! I brought my amp to a prominent Boston Fender authorized repair shop because I was getting a blown speaker-farting sound on the low E string, F, F# & G.

I replaced the 12AX7's a few months ago, and as long as the unit was it for repair had them replace the 6L6's.

They had it a week, paid the $100, took it home, 1/2 hour after warm up and playing, it was back again. After bring it back two more times, and being told by a Berklee student employee that there was nothing wrong with the amp, I gave up on them.

I had swapped chords, guitars, with and without effects, nothing seemed to fix it.

Brought it to a trusted local music store, with a letter describing the past repair attempts, and a week later, and another $100 got it back with resistors replaced in the power supply.

1/2 hour into playing, the farting was back. Now they have had my amp for four weeks and I can't get an answer from them.

I turn to the Guru's of Fender amps. What do the god's require of me to remedy my torture?

Humbly

[curtisstetka]

Hey, Psychorelic. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with your amp.

I'm sure the people here will advise you to sell that amp and get something better.

I'm just going to commiserate with you. I got a Twin off the 'bay over a year ago. The day I got it, it started cutting out. It was really weird. I had it to two different techs - they did the same, fiddled around with a few components. Then I'd get it back and it would do the same thing.

Finally, I sent it to TJ (known as NTBluesGuitar around these parts). He did a complete rebuild - took out the PCB and did a new point-to-point build to old blackface specs.

I got the amp back only a few weeks ago and... problem still there! But now I'd narrowed it down to the speaker. So I recently ordered a new one from Weber and I'm awaiting its arrival. In the meantime, I'm using a PA speaker with the Twin and even through that it sounds sweet.

So, my recommendation would be to get on TJ's waiting list for a rebuild. You'll end up with a MUCH better amp. Otherwise, you could end up chasing your tail (and spending money) on your HRDlx - a model with some known reliability issues.

Good luck!

[phantomman]

The Great Carnac sez......



"Trade up for a Deluxe Reverb Re-issue!"

[Psychorelic]

Thanks for the advice,

First, I'd hate to trade it in, as it sounds great for 1/2 hour, then have some other poor dope, buy it and end up with my problems.

My backup is a mint '65 Deluxe Reverb Black Face; now you know how much I hate to bring that out of the studio to a gig!

Hey Phantomman, was in Goodyear last week!.

Tom

[phantomman]

Was it cool enough for you?

(I think it hit 109º up there)

[ES350]

113 here in Pigeontown today...

[Mesotech]

This sounds more like a bias issue than an amp specific (HRDx vs anything else) issue.

Perhaps what has happened is the power tubes were replaced (as you indicate they were) and either the amp wasn't rebiased at that time, or it was rebiased but while the tubes were "cold". A good solid bias job would involve setting the bias once tubes were replaced and the amp initially turned on, and then recheck the bias over a period of time as the amp warms up.

The tech wants to check it early to make sure the tubes aren't either too hot or too cold on startup, but they should make the final adjustments after it has reached normal operating temperature to ensure there has been no drift. From your description, it doesn't appear as if either of the repair shops did this (though they still might have). Most shops are busy and getting the amp off the bench so another one can be put on takes priority. Leaving an amp sit on the bench for a half hour or longer means less repairs made in the course of a day, unless they have lots of room.

[FrankJohnson]

I could dig up an old thread with this exact set of symptoms......
I think it is how my problems started, (With that amp anyway)....
and my introduction into the Fender Forum.

Since then - I have reapaired about 6-8 and my own.

Humor me......I won't tell you it sucks, trade it or anything yet.......

unplugged, with the back cover open, gently wiggle the V1, V2 and V3 tubes (the three 12ax7's) one at a time, while watching the solder on the circiut board where the tube socket is mounted.

If the solder moves, you have a crappy solder joint that needed resoldered.

the second thing I would recommend looking at is the actual tubes, one at a time, especially around the base.....look for cracking.

Had both of these issues more than once.

Next is some cement resistor, the board, aliens, gremlins, etc......


these two things are fairly easy to check.

BTW - do you know Johnny Duke?

[Stonefreefuzz1]

sorry to get off topic, but 109 degrees? 113 Degrees? DANG! stay hydrated friends!

[phantomman]

BUT IT'S A DRY HEAT!

[Stonefreefuzz1]

BUT IT'S A DRY HEAT!

Dang Humidity here on the East coast is killin' me! When I get home from work It Looks like I just walked outta Niagra falls!

[Psychorelic]

Thanks to everyone...I am picking up the amp today, will double check tubes, dig out the multimeter and biad the 6L6's.

Put the solder pencil to any suspect looking connections, and maybe put the old 12AX7's in to see if the tubes were crappy!

My 65 Deluxe Reverb Black Face never has these problems, and I love the tone thru the Fender 2 - 15" old bass man cabinet, especially with the Rhodes thru it!

Glendale/Goodyear was 114 for the week that I was there.

Again Thanks all!

Tom ROCKland, MA

[NTBluesGuitar]

My 65 Deluxe Reverb Black Face never has these problems...

It's an entirely different PCB design with chassis mounted tube sockets.

It makes a TON of difference.

[old blue]

No No No!
Not Again.......Another HRD is dying thread......

[NTBluesGuitar]

Some feel that death is but the beginning...

[phantomman]

Indeed!

All HRDlx amps reincarnate as FM212's.

[boobtube21]

If it happens when the amp gets hot, sounds like it's heat related, and a bad connection. Heat=resistance=more heat=more resistance.

Do like Frank says and take a gander at those solder joints.

TJ, your sig almost brings a tear to my eye!

[elicross]

TJ, your sig almost brings a tear to my eye!

Yep, that was a wonderful sentiment...back in the days when this land was not run by a democratically-elected president and congress who represented more than half the country's wishes!

[NTBluesGuitar]

TJ, your sig almost brings a tear to my eye!

Yeah, I was moved, too, when I discovered it during some recent reading.

All HRDlx amps reincarnate as FM212's.

I was thinking more along the lines of certain '50s Fender Split-Load PI-based amps.

Yep, that was a wonderful sentiment...back in the days when this land was not run by a democratically-elected president and congress who represented more than half the country's wishes!

*sigh* You know how Jeffersonian I am about this stuff, Eli. Oh, I will add that this view points to a pure democratic view; where a bare majority of popular vote rules. However, in a supposed representative republic, there's more involved than just a popular majority. Bare democracy allows for mob rule, which in turn resorts to despotism and in the end anarchy. There's no representation for any minority in a pure democracy. The representative republic is the genius of our founders' principles.

The first half of that Sam Adams quote that I left out gives even more context, but I intentionally left it out for fears it might be taken as too 'pointed'. But, since you referenced it:

"In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. Every art of corruption would be employed to loosen the bond of union which renders our resistance formidable. When the spirit of liberty, which now animates our hearts and gives success to our arms, is extinct, our numbers will accelerate our ruin and render us easier victims to tyranny."

Puts a whole new spin on the beer, eh?

Back to Democracy versus Republic... 52.9% of the popular vote is not enough to justify "fundamentally transforming the United States of America." (Obama's words from five days before the 2008 election. Far from speaking metaphorically when taken in context of certain Alinsky methods that he was a student/professor of.)

In our Republic, that sort of action requires three quarters approval from the House and Senate, plus three quarters of the states' ratification...unless a pure democracy is that fundamental transformation he was referring to and is seemingly trying to institute.

And before any points surface referencing the (late-second-term) Bush administration, this applies to them, too.

[elicross]

Puts a whole new spin on the beer, eh?

I suppose. I gotta say, though, adding the rest of the quote doesn't make it seem any more relevant to today. We are not subjects to an overseas monarch; the fact that you didn't vote for the current president and legislative majority does not make them tyrants.

That is all. :)

[phantomman]

the fact that you didn't vote for the current president and legislative majority does not make them tyrants.

Uh......yeah.

Right.

[elicross]

I've always appreciated the high level of intellectual rigor you bring to political discourse.

[Cygnus X1]

Buy a Deluxe Reverb reissue!

Oops.
Wrong room again.

Welp, I'm kind of busy.
AIG just sent a man to pay me to protest somewhere.
Better go get my "marching orders".

[NTBluesGuitar]

You got yours from AIG? Dang, I just got my orders from Allstate...or is that All-STATIST

We are not subjects to an overseas monarch; the fact that you didn't vote for the current president and legislative majority does not make them tyrants.

More Sam Adams:
"How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!"

[elicross]

Wait - Am I the tyrant in this analogy? Or a tool of tyrants? Or just a tool?

I'm not sure how I perverted your words. Do I now have to register as a perverted word offender?

It's a fact that a lot of conservatives are using words like "tyranny" in criticizing the current government. They're using "tea party" analogies and other references to the Revolution to imply that the current government is some sort of unlawful monarchy, rather than the latest duly elected majority. Some of these people claim it's not about President Obama or the Democratic Party, that they felt this way when Bush and the GOP were in power, too -- but I find it telling that most of them have only begun to voice their distaste for the federal government since around January of this year.

If these things don't describe you, TJ -- or if your Sam Adams quotes are in reference to something other than the current government being a tyranny -- then I'm sincerely sorry I've misunderstood you.

[boobtube21]

What the hell does all this have to do with fixing this amp?

Let's keep it on subject. How about discussing the pros and cons of Obama taking over FMIC, if that would improve the HR series or not.

[elicross]

Roger oughtta be able to find a Photoshop of President Obama playing a CBS-era Strat pretty quick, if history's any indication.

But does more heat really equal more resistance? I always thought conductors generally got more...conductive?...as they heated up.

[jeru]

Was it cool enough for you?

(I think it hit 109º up there)

Yeah, but it's not the heat, it's the humility.

[boobtube21]

How about a photoshop of a guy carrying in his HRDx to a "cash for clunkers" event?

Just kidding HR owners.

[elicross]

Evil.

[grandturk]

So... Hot Rod Devilles and Hot Rod Deluxes... Crap?

[Kap'n]

So... Hot Rod Devilles and Hot Rod Deluxes... Crap?

In the opinion of a lot of people on this board (and a bunch of repair folks), yes.

Not that it matters. FMIC continues to sell a zillion of them...until maybe the last price increase.

[Cygnus X1]

Grandturk, for whatever reason FMIC took this route is beyond comprehension.
It is a very popular series.
But as Kap'n hints, it misses on the bang-for-the-buck quality.

Not that they can't build a quality amp for a good price, either.
The Princeton reissues will settle into a reasonable price, and the reissue Deluxe Reverbs although built on the same principles as the HRDX series (circuit boards, etc), have stood the test of time already.

And I think they have done the Champ 600 right.
It retains the classic tone and is a sturdy build.

So, sad to say, they flubbed a lot of things on them, but they move because they are cheap.

[elicross]

And as long as they sell so well, there's no incentive for FMIC to change the way they build the Hot Rod amps. Tons of people still seem to be willing to take their chances with these amps, so as far Fender's concerned, they ain't broke. (Or, at least, as far as the decision-makers at Fender are concerned.)

I don't have any real experience with the Hot Rod amps. I've heard a Hot Rod Deluxe sound pretty darn good when a talented guitarist was playing a nice axe through it -- but I've seen enough anecdotal evidence about quality problems that I could never buy one myself. Unless I maybe I was buying a dead, used one for TJ to hand-wire a 5E3 in.

[Kap'n]

And as long as they sell so well, there's no incentive for FMIC to change the way they build the Hot Rod amps.

For years, FEI's products were FMI/FMIC's biggest competition.

If they build 'em like the HRDx, they'll never need to worry about that again.

[elicross]

A little "planned obsolescence," you think?

[phantomman]

but I find it telling that most of them have only begun to voice their distaste for the federal government since around January of this year.

Having a issue with "community organizing", are we?

[elicross]

If I had even an inkling what that's supposed to mean, I'd totally write you a great response, PM.

(What happened -- Is Google Image Search down tonight?)

[grandturk]

Not that they can't build a quality amp for a good price, either.
The Princeton reissues will settle into a reasonable price, and the reissue Deluxe Reverbs although built on the same principles as the HRDX series (circuit boards, etc), have stood the test of time already.

I really like the Princeton and the Lux Verb reissues - the Princeton especially. Nice sound with the vibrato and cranked they break up nice.

So, the Blues Jr - same thing as the Hot Rod and the Deville? Built like crap? I was kind of thinking about a Blues Jr and a Princeton. But maybe not anymore (just stick to my Boogie...).

[guitarjk]

Originally Posted by elicross View Post
but I find it telling that most of them have only begun to voice their distaste for the federal government since around January of this year.

Just what are you tryin to say here?