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Thread: Aluminum Archtop Build

  1. #41
    Forum Member clayville's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    My opinion on strap pin location shouldn't count for much, as I'm not sure I have one.

    On my CS-356, it's at the neck heel which doesn't affect the neck/end balance negatively... but... it does make for a slight tendency for the top edge to roll forward -- it can move in two dimensions instead of one, gimbaling from that center neck heel point depending on where/how your belly hits the back, if you see what I'm saying. This admittedly slight tendency got exaggerated a bit when I intalled Dunlop Dual Design Straploks -- the extra 1/4" or so space between the back and the strap made the guitar a bit more floppy. Even so... I'm used to it now, and it doesn't bother me as it might someone else.

    I've heard of folks moving 33X center/heel pins to the horn, and even though it seems like that would feel more "solid" as the guitar hangs, I wonder what the different shoulder to pin strap angle would do to overall balance. Hard to say on an unbuilt guitar!

    I'd put the input jack on the rim though -- unless you use those L-shaped curly cords.


    Not that there's anything wrong with that.

  2. #42
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    Curly cords. I had one way back when. I think I'll put the jack in the rim as you suggest -- it's a safer spot.

    I thought the heel location would do as you say and cause a little top-heavy feeling. You got used to it but since this is a scratch build, why not put it on the horn? I'll test it on the sample horn when it is complete. Gut feel says it will be fine there.

    The sample/test horn still isn't tacked -- or even fully trimmed. I trimmed one edge and it took so long as to be impractical when you're looking at doing the full parts. I made a quick&dirty scribe to mark the parts and I'll see how that goes tomorrow. If it works, I'll make a better one for the real parts.

    Thanks.......Bill

  3. #43
    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    dude, i think this is a way cool project. can't wait to see it done.
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  4. #44
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    Thanks Gris, Chuckocaster and everyone else for the encouragement!

    Here are a few photos of the test horn tacked together. The fit is not as good as I would like, especially on one side. I want to make a plate to close the inside of the part so I can run argon gas behind the weld. This keeps the back side of the weld from oxidizing and allows the metal to flow together better -- in theory anyway. After that I'll weld the seams.


    This side fits OK. There are some gaps but it's good enough for a test weld.


    The marks were put on the parts when they were on the form block together. It made it easier to line them up for welding.


    A good view of the gaps. I can do better.


    I think I need a better scribe tool. It's designed but not built yet.


    This is my back-up gas setup. I ran about 4 Cubic ft/min of argon through this tube. It may not have been enough flow as you will see. I'm running low on argon and wanted to get this welding done before I ran out.






    Three photos of the welded part. Not real pretty. I'll want to position the part differently for welding next time.



    This is the back side of the weld. Not enough heat (or moving the puddle too fast) and probably not enough argon flow. But a good test.

    Now it's time to see how it looks with the weld dressed........Bill

  5. #45
    Forum Member Gris's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    This really appeals to me because one of my lifeflong dreams is to own one of those alum neck Beans I saw Jer play his *ss off on in '77... :-)

  6. #46
    Forum Member pseudocat's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    I don't know how I missed this thread... d'oh!

    Very cool! What a great project.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    The test horn is basically done. It could use a better polish job but that will have to wait until I get better polishing stuff.









    One side has more shape than the other. I think I like the one with less shape. It's probably raised 1/4" max vs. 3/16" max. The real 335 had less shape there than the photos would lead you to believe.......Bill
    Last edited by cwilliamrose; 04-09-2010 at 01:12 PM.

  8. #48
    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    hey man, not much info on this page, but some neat stuff.

    http://www.zeroguitars.com/zeroguitars.html
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  9. #49
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    Thanks for the link. It's one I hadn't found on my own. Like you say, not much info there. I love some of those finishes! And I wonder how the necks are attached since there's no obvious fasteners. Maybe a dovetail like Alumisonic??

  10. #50
    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    maybe. neat looking guitars. let me see if i can find some more. i was looking for maple body blanks and stumbled onto that site from links posted on other sites. the whole ending up on the other side of the universe by clinking 3 links...
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  11. #51
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    Wow!

    Spray some nitro on the wood forming blocks and you got a body!

    Man, your metal work will look more of an art sculpture...great work and very interesting build.

    jesse

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  12. #52
    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    here's another cool one.

    http://www.gigliottiguitars.com/
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  13. #53
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckocaster View Post
    here's another cool one.

    http://www.gigliottiguitars.com/
    That's the one mentioned earlier -- wood body with a metal plate top. Again, neat finishes.

    Thanks.......Bill

  14. #54
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    Quote Originally Posted by kaicho8888 View Post
    Wow!

    Spray some nitro on the wood forming blocks and you got a body!
    jesse
    I actually thought of that! I'd be a lot closer to finished if I had done that.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaicho8888 View Post
    Man, your metal work will look more of an art sculpture...great work and very interesting build.
    I'm counting on that in case it sucks as an instrument. Thanks for the kind words Jesse............Bill

  15. #55
    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    either way, it looks great so far.
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  16. #56
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    I had a week's worth of welding work to do so I'm just getting back to this subject.

    I'll be making the rim tomorrow. Because I'm putting the jack in the rim I wanted to do some testing and tool development to try to recess the jack for a neater look. The images below are of my test part. I think I like it and will do it this way. What do you guys think?



    The challenge was to put the recess in without it affecting the area around it too much. I'll document how it was done and what the tool looks like while making the rim.



    The quick polish job looks it in these close-ups. It looks a little better in person. Hopefully those dings won't be in the real part!.......Bill

  17. #57
    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    damn dude! damn!

    you make my builds look some third grader with power tools built them.

    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

  18. #58
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    Thanks Chuck,

    But ya' gotta' remember I haven't made anything that produces sound yet, just bits and pieces. Well, OK, that one piece (the horn) made a cowbell-like noise when the rag wheel grabbed it out of my hands and threw it to the floor -- does that count?

    I guess from your response you like the recessed jack mount, that's two for, none against -- recessed it is!...........Bill

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    Recessing the Jack

    This is the process I developed to recess the jack in the rim. I want to put it in the rim instead of the ES-335's traditional spot on the top to minimize the risk of damage from the cord being yanked while plugged in. In the rim the cord will likely just get pulled out.


    This is where I started. I was hoping I could form the recess, then wrap the rim part around the form block. The tools were made in the lathe and modified until I got the depth where it needed to be to fully recess the jack.

    Several problems cropped up that caused me to reverse the order and bend the rim part first to match the form block, then add the recess. The punch tended to mark the part and that required some extra work dressing those mark out. The bigger issue was that once formed, the recess didn't want to take the shape of the block....


    ....At least not without very forceful persuasion. I sawed these blocks out of a scrap chunk of 1" aluminum plate, making the arc roughly match the arc of the rim where the jack will mount. I figured I could force the recess into shape with the hydraulic press. It almost worked but left the part with a little flat spot that didn't want to come out.


    I modified the aluminum blocks so I could use a different punch and let the bottom block be the die. I made a drop-in stop out of 1" round steel that could be cut down to adjust the depth of the recess feature. The punch is 11/16" dia steel with a 1/4" pilot. The punch fits closely in the hole in the upper block and pilots on the hole in the stop -- hopefully keeping things lined up fairly well. I added six 1/4-20 holes so I can bolt it together before I take it to the press. The six holes also help align the part in the blocks.


    The part gets a 1/4" hole for the pilot and this locates the recess feature in the rim. But before I can form the recess, I'll need to anneal the part so it's soft enough to easily take the shape without tearing.


    Annealing aluminum requires that it be heated to 800°F. Knowing when you reach that temperature is easy using an old method that makes use of the fact that carbon burns at about the same 800°F temperature. I fire up the oxy-acetylene torch and adjust it to a rich mixture. The photo doesn't show it very well but the flame is very yellow instead of blue for a neutral flame. I put a thin coat of carbon on one side of the metal with this rich flame. If the coating is too thick, I run the risk of over-heating the aluminum before the carbon burns off.


    This blurry photo shows the carbon partially gone from the surface. The torch's mixture has been changed to a neutral flame.


    It's ready to be formed. There's a little carbon where the pliers gripped the part, otherwise is pretty clean.


    With the blocks assembled around the rim section, it's time for the press.


    When the punch bottoms on the stop I give a bit more pressure to make sure I have a nice flat mounting surface for the jack.



    This is the formed part. The 1/4" hole will be enlarged to 3/8" for the jack. I also modified the MDF form block so that the recess feature has a cavity to sit in.

    I have the for-real rim ready to form. I will need some clamping blocks to hold it firmly against the form while I hammer the rolled edge down but other than that, I'm ready to go. The next full post will be the rim fabrication -- the first actuall part to be made.......Bill

  20. #60
    Forum Member Jonnda's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    I'm impressed. Keep up the good work.
    "The other Shaltanac's joopleberry shrub is always a more mauvy shade of pinky-russet."

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    Fabricating the Rim

    I finally got the rim fabricated. I took a little detour yesterday by way of an injury. Stupid really, as most shop injuries are but I was able to finish this part today.


    I have already annealed the rim part which is 1.69" x 72". The recessed jack feature is done and there's a small hole at the end pin to help me get the part on the form block in the same place each time I remove it. I need a hole there anyway. I have roughly shaped the profile by hand, just pushing the metal into place around the form block. When I tried to form it around the block by hand before I annealed the metal I got almost no permanent bends, it was all spring back.


    I made a couple of clamp blocks to press the metal against the form block while I hammer form the edge radius. I'll relieve the corners where it meets the metal so I can get the hammer in contact with the part a little easier.


    I start out at the bottom of the rim. My clamp blocks don't reach that far -- I'm just pressing the metal against the form block with one hand and hammering with the other. Notice the very small plastic-faced hammer. It doesn't take much effort to shrink the edge down to the block.


    This is a sequence of photos showing how the edge was rolled. I usually do about 1-1/2" at a time. I don't try to get the metal all the way down with one hammer blow, I do it in stages. Since I'm shrinking the metal I start by going out to the end of my working zone and make the first blow there, then work backwards towards the section that's already done. Once I get it all down about half way, I go back and do another pass. The second pass get it almost all the way down. The last pass forces the metal into contact with the block.


    The bottom is about done on both sides. I have the form block screwed to the work table so I can beat on it without having to clamp it down.


    At this point the rim is formed to the top of the horns. I used bar clamps to apply pressure to the clamp blocks. The clamps aren't very strong but it doesn't take a lot of force either. The rest of the horns were edge-formed by a combination of hand pressure during hammering and pushing the form block into a piece of round plastic bolted to my steel table. I'd want better fixtures if I was doing more than one of these.


    It didn't really want to come off the form block, it was pretty tight. Once it was off, it took this shape. I have some extra metal that will get trimmed off soon. All but about a foot of the 72" long part was needed to go all the way around the body.


    Another angle.


    False Progress Image #1


    False Progress Image #2

    The next step is to create a "station buck" for the top and back panels. I have spent several days trying to define a nice shape using Solidworks. The surfacing abilities of SWx and myself are falling short of goal. I will probably use the good stuff from the CAD model's surfaces and do a little fudging to make it whole.

    A station buck looks a bit like an egg crate that has uneven slats. The unevenness is dictated by the shape you want your panel to take. While working on the panel, you use the buck as a guide to tell you where you need more shape. You need to be able to lay the part on the buck in a consistent manner so you're not chasing your tail trying to make it fit. There's only 1/2" of rise in the deepest part of the panels so I'll have to be careful not to go too far.

    Once I get one panel to my liking (even if it doesn't fit the buck exactly), I'll make the other panel to match the first. I may need to tweak the buck between panels so I have a good guide for the second one. The truth is, you can't really see both the top and back at the same time so it doesn't have to be a perfect match.......Bill

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    Station Buck: Part I

    This is the model of the station buck for the top and back panels. I have made full-sized print-outs of the parts and they will be glued to the wood and carefully cut, sanded and assembled. I should be able to get this ready for use by Tuesday.


    The base will be made of 1/2" MDF. I'll probably need a frame to hold it flat so I modeled one made of 3/4" x 2-1/2" pine. This is the side I'll be looking at when the panel is in the buck. Anywhere the metal doesn't touch the buck needs more shape.


    This is the side the metal will sit against. The corners of the cut-out in the MDF and the slats will all be looked at as targets for the panel's shape.

    The amount of shape in the horns is based on the test part I made. One side of that little part was deeper than the other and I liked the shallower side best. When I brought the test horn over to WD, we compared it to the Stromberg's they had on display and the guys there thought less was plenty too. I think the ES-335 has more going on in the horns than the Strombergs but if I go too far it might start to look a little cartoonish. I'll adjust as needed to get something that looks good to the eye........Bill

  23. #63
    Forum Member Custom 5's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    fascinating project. looking forward to the outcome.

  24. #64
    Forum Member Offshore Angler's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    One of the best threads ever. This is a cool project. Keep the reports coming!
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Custom 5 View Post
    fascinating project. looking forward to the outcome.
    Yeah, me too.

    At least now I'm working on the real parts, it feels like progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore Angler View Post
    One of the best threads ever. This is a cool project. Keep the reports coming!
    Will do. Thanks for the encouragement!.........Bill

  26. #66
    Forum Member Custom 5's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    do you have a welding sequence worked out yet so the body doesn't twist into a pretzel from the heat stress? that must be a big part of this project.

  27. #67
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    If this were stainless steel instead of aluminum, I'd be very concerned. My plan is to tack it every inch or two. I could build a fixture that would allow me to clamp it to the table but I'm thinking it won't be necessary. I think there's enough section thickness to hold it's shape once it's well tacked. The one thing about aluminum is that the whole part gets hot during welding because of that material's good heat transfer characteristics. S/S has poor heat transfer so the weld can be at a very different temperature than metal just a short distance away. This is what causes heat stress. And because aluminum melts at about half the temperature if steel, there's less of a problem. Aluminum's bad characteristic is it's thermal expansion but with the whole part getting hot, it shouldn't be a big issue.

    I'll do the rim-to-back weld first. I want that weld complete before I fit the structural parts. If that goes OK and doesn't warp much the top weld should be fine. At least that's the theory......

    Added:
    I should also mention that it probably make sense to skip around in some symmetrical pattern (because the part is symmetrical). I'll just have to watch as I weld for trouble signs but I expect it will behave itself as long as I don't make one big long weld from neck to neck.
    Last edited by cwilliamrose; 07-13-2009 at 10:33 AM.

  28. #68
    Forum Member clayville's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    Great stuff! Thanks for the updates.

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    Station Buck Assembly

    I'm about one day behind but the station buck is done and waiting for glue to dry.


    These are the patterns I made from the CAD drawing of the parts I glued them to the wood and will cut most of them out on the bandsaw.


    The slats are done here and sitting in place on the base pattern.


    The base is done as are the four frame parts. I'll need the frame to keep the buck flat.


    Instead of using glue for joining the slats to the base, I'm using small finishing nails. I drilled a snug hole for them but they can be easily pulled out if I need to make a big change. I'd hate to have to start from scratch and build a new buck. The slats fit tight in the base's slots and just need to be held from shifting. I did use some super glue to tie the slats together -- they didn't want to stay aligned to each other without some help.


    It's done. The frame is glued together and is drying on my nice flat steel table. I used a wide strap as a clamp with some scraps of wood for directing the pressure. Nothing critical here but it needs to be stout enough to survive the process of making two panels (assuming no scrap ones happen).

    Tomorrow I start on the first top/back panel. Should be fun! .............Bill
    Last edited by cwilliamrose; 07-15-2009 at 01:35 PM.

  30. #70
    Forum Member Gris's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    Hmmmm, there is something very 'Danelectro-ish' about that metal binding wrapped around the wood core...

  31. #71
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    It would look cool to finish a wood body like that instead of just binding the corners.

    Those Danelectros did have some unusual styling, they even looked funny to me back in the day....Bill

  32. #72
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    How's the CNC part coming along?
    "No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim

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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    I haven't started the machined parts other than to get the material. I'm still trying to make a choice on the neck type and that effects the heel/neck pocket area. I also need to design the hardware for the bridge and tailpiece. I figure if the body shell defeats me, why waste time machining those interior parts?

    The neck is a choice between a fender-style geometry which allows the use of a "conversion" neck or using the Epi LPJ neck I have as a basis and having a custom neck built at some point (and this assumes I won't like the cheap maple Epi neck I have now). I can convert the Epi neck to bolt-on like the fender necks but I need to make the neck pocket longer which means it sticks out from the body more. This adds weight and makes access to those nearby frets a little harder.

    The whole neck subject probably deserves it's own thread. It seems there is no Gibson standard scale length. The Epi neck I have happens to be almost exactly 24.75". Most LP's are 24.6 or 24.625 depending on who you believe. The ES guitars were 24.75 at some point but I'm not sure the newer aren't 24.6 now. The conversion necks sold by Warmoth, USACG, etc are 24.6, not 24.75. And there are no drawings of the conversion necks, I'd have to buy one and reverse engineer it to be confident it would "work".

    I'm considering a tapered heel pocket protrusion that saves some weight and makes the neck mount area thinner. Because I'm mounting to metal instead of wood, I have some freedom to remove material there without getting too weak. I'll never get to the point where it matches the ES neck's fret access unless I design a dovetail mount so I'm thinking to come as close as possible. Maybe I'll do a different neck mount design for the next one ("next one"? there probably won't be a "next one").

    When I do the machined parts I intend to mount the bridge and TP where it should mount (by all the rules) and check intonation. I can do this by drilling and taping for the standard studs. I'll need to enlarge those holes for some sort of bushing so this trail fit will give me a chance to move those mount points a little if I need to. Once I put the big bushing holes in, I'm committed.

    And just a reminder;

    No CNC here. Manual only..............Bill

  34. #74
    Forum Member Wilko's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    Upon looking at your styling buck for the archtop I got to wondering.
    Isn't the normal method to shape from the outside (as in car panel beating)?

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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    Good Question.

    My two primary tools for this panel are my English Wheel and my pneumatic planishing hammer. They both have the anvil (the flat side) on the top and the shape comes from underneath. So, when I'm looking at where I need to add shape, I'll be looking at the side of the panel I can see while I'm working it. Any marks I make will be on the most visible side of the panel. If I were using a shot bag and hammers, I'd want to mark the inside of the part because that's what I'd be looking at while shaping it. With only about 1/2" of rise I can't really afford to rough it out first because I'd probably end up with too much shape.

    And I think I can do the majority of the panel while it is in T6 condition and not do any annealing until I roll the edge, which will be the last step. I'll know tomorrow if this is true.......Bill

  36. #76
    Forum Member Wilko's Avatar
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    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    carry on!

  37. #77
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    Re: Fabricating the Rim

    Quote Originally Posted by cwilliamrose View Post
    You could make some tasty (albeit huge) cookies with that part!!

    This is amazing, I'm on the edge of my seat. Can't wait to see this baby all put together.

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    Description of Tools


    I got the buck done yesterday and the glue is now dry, it's ready for use.


    This is a template for the blanks. I went 1" outside of the forming area but about half that will be trimmed off before the edge is rolled. I added six finishing nails to locate the panel.


    This is my English Wheel. I built it about twenty years ago. It has a 44" throat depth -- for big panels.


    These are the anvil wheels and quick release lever. The upper anvil is flat, the lower one is only flat in the center. The lower wheels have relief outside of the flat center area to allow the panel to clear the wheel. The quick release is there to allow you to eliminate the pressure and remove the panel without losing your pressure adjustment.


    The lower wheels are stored in the rack at the back of the tool. The spoked black wheel is the kick wheel for adjusting the amount of force between the two anvil wheels. You can make an adjustment without using your hands and continue working.


    This is my planishing hammer. It used to belong to Piper Aircraft. The foot pedal brings the anvils together and starts the hammer motion. The pedal also allows some pressure adjustments by the operator. The upper section is movable so different thicknesses of metal can be worked. Both the upper and lower anvils are replaceable. There's an air pressure regulator that adjusts the speed of the hammer.


    This photo shows three lower anvils from the English Wheel and planishing hammer. They are similar in that they both have varying sized flat spots and relief for the panel. The wheel at the left end is actually flat across it's width and is used to (try to) remove dents from flat panels. I'll use the middle anvil for the planishing hammer on the horns, the rest of the top and back shape will be done on the wheel using the flattest wheel I can for the shape I'm making.

  39. #79
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    SW Florida
    Posts
    513

    First Panel Started


    This is my blank. I marked the outline of the buck's base to help guide my shaping.


    I kinda' eased into the pressure a little at a time until I saw something happening. The photo is trying to show the tracks in the panel. The idea is the zig-zag across the panel with overlapping or nearly overlapping tracks. As many passes as I'm going to make, I don't really needed to overlap, it will happen over time. The panel is just starting to get some shape here.


    As you can see from the reflection of the upper anvil, the panel is very smooth, no upsets. Moving the metal through the wheel is very nearly effortless, you can literally do it with two fingers.


    Once I settled on a pressure setting I did two patterns each 90° apart. I got this much shape from the first set of passes. The tracks show up pretty well here -- notice they don't overlap.


    I clamped the buck to the table vertically to make it easier to use. This is after only a few passes, there's a long way to go.


    After about six more passes, I have this much shape. I'm not in a hurry. If I used more pressure I get there quicker but I'd have some ridges to smooth out and doing that also adds shape because the wheel always stretches the metal.


    Getting closer! I'm seeing the panel want to curl which always seems to be something you're dealing with. I have it clamped to see how far I have left to go but I'd need to get it flatter as I add the rest of the shape.

    This is my stopping point for today. I hope I'm not boring you guys with too much detail!........Bill

  40. #80

    Re: Aluminum Archtop Build

    This is the best thread ever!!! I can't wait for more updates!
    Fuzz is proof God love us and wants us to be happy. - Franklin
    http://www.frankdenigris.com

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