OK, seriously, what should Detroit do to get the folks back?

[redb]

The fact remains that the outside edge of the tire will go from zero to 400 mph relative to the ground every revolution.

In instantaneous speeds yes. I also agree that it does so sinusoidally, and that at any point on the rotation of the wheel a point will have a related point 180 degrees away that has the same absolute value velocity.

But most people dont have the math background to really grasp that concept in a good enough sense to really appreciate what you are saying.

The average person thinks of speeds, velocity and even acceleration as one concept and in averages. If you go 60 miles in an hour you were going 60mph, even though you may very well have gone 0mph for 30 minutes and 120mph for the other 30 minutes.

Ill share a real life example of how the "average person" has trouble with these things. I regularly tutor people in my major (especially on mathematically involved classes like micro or labor) and one of the most common misunderstandings I see is that people think that solving a derivative at one point on a graph gives you the slope of the ENTIRE curve which may (or most likely, may not) be true because they dont understand the difference between slope at a discreet point, overall slope and average slope.

FWIW I think its a very interesting discussion.

[TT100]

The physics sub thread here is interesting. Not being an engineer my layman's thought is that at a steady vehicle speed, the driven, powered wheels are in a constant state of deceleration (the vehicle is working to slow the rotation of the wheel by it's inertia, aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance) and the free wheels (not having power applied) are in a constant state of acceleration as the contact patch works to hold the tire in place but the momentum of the vehicle causes the tire to rotate.

Back to the point of the thread, if Detroit can make it so their wheels simultaneously accelerate and decelerate longer than those on my old Volvos, at a lower cost and transport me in a comfortable, quiet and safe interior for under $20k, I might consider a new car again.

Here's the thing. A few years ago I bought what was then a 12 year old car. A Volvo 940 Turbo wagon with 110,000 miles on it for under $3,400. Perfect condition. Four wheel discs, dual airbags, cast iron block, rwd, leather, heated seats, electric windows, mirrors etc. I've been half way across the country twice in it and it's a daily driver. I'm 6'1" and can stretch both legs straight out in it while on CC. The seats are good enough that I'm considering putting a salvage yard seat on a pedestal and making an office chair. It handles mountain roads very well, accelerates very quickly for something this size and weight and cruises effortlessly at 80mph while returning 24mpg and is cheap to insure. It would be everything I would look for in a new car so why would I consider spending $25k or more? It's also extremely easy to maintain yourself. Fwiw, my '88 740 turbo had over 210,000 miles on it, original turbo too, before I sold it because of a move.

The ultimate incentive plan to stimulate car sales? A $5,000 per year, "Obsolete Vehicle" registration surcharge on anything out of OEM emissions or restraint systems warranty. I'm not suggesting it, just waiting for it.

TT

[Offshore Angler]

Part of the problem is that the great minds of the US Congress have been trying to force vehicles not suited for our roads and lifestyle upon us.

A little FWD 4 cylinder car is wonderful in Tokyo, GB, or Singapore, but here in the US we have much different driving conditions. As an example, the full-size pickup - a staple of american sales, truck didn't exist in Japan.

The other problem is mileage standards. Congress can pass all the mileage standards the want, but they can't change the laws of thermodynamics. There is a finite amount of energy in a gallon of gas. You can play with the stoichiometry only so far and then you start loosing efficeincy.

Case in point, When the Wright Brothers flew they went about 20 or 30 mph. By the 60's airplanes were going a couple thousand miles and hour. 40 years later, airplanes aren't any faster. They reached the technological limits. Cars are there now too with respect to MPG from fossil fuels.

Electric cars - you only shift the production of energy from the vehicle to some other source and then accrue the the inefficiencies of power transport. Where the car itself uses less energy the total energy required to run it is greater, albeit cheaper. Next, what are the envioremental effects of creating, maintaining and recycling the batteries?

Plus, electric cars are death traps. I personally don't want to be in an accident in a vehicle with 300 Amps coursing through it.

[NMCA_Ron]

I pride myself on being somewhat of a car nut. I know what I like in a car and I know what I don't like. I also have an idea of what the auto manufacturers THINK we all like. Here are some suggestions in no particular order:

1) ALL new domestic automotive designers and engineers should be required to spend a minimum of two years at a dealership making warranty repairs and dealing with customer complaints, PERIOD.

2) A new car should NOT have as standard equipment the following items: Air conditioning, power seats, power windows, power door locks, automatic transmission, GPS, power steering, CD changer, anti-theft, etc... These should be options. The only reason the auto manufacturers make these standard items is so you, the customer, will have to pay a higher price (read: profit margin) for a car with features you may or may not want or need. Why have bells and whistles if you are not gonna ring or toot? Give us a basic car for cryin' out loud!

3) Sever the state of California from the United States and let them float out to sea.

4) (This was pointed out earlier) LIGHTEN the cars. Cheese and rice, people! How much fuel do you think is burned just getting these barges moving? If cars didn't have to carry around all the aforementioned crap (see suggestion number 2) they would use less fuel, handle better, be more resistant to parts wear (less load, less wear) and I wouldn't have to get out the torch and plasma cutter to lighten one up to race weight...

5) Bring cost down. I was in the market for a new truck to pull the racecar trailer a few years back. We looked at a new Dodge Cummins dually and about fell over when we saw the sticker price as much as our freakin' house. We ended up keeping our old tow vehicle and bought a Neon for $40k LESS than the truck.

6) I have heard a lot of chatter about electric cars being the way to help the environment. Balderdash and poppycock! These things may actually be "greener" when in use, but where do you suppose the BATTERIES come from? And better yet, in 5 years when they go tits up, where do the BATTERIES go? My guess is they will have someone overseas manufacture the batteries because China or Sri Lanka or Singapore doesn't have the environmental constraints on battery production like the US does. Building batteries is a messy, messy industry. Just ask Union Carbide... Now, when they are used up, where are we gonna put them? Send them back to Singapore? HA!

7) Mass produce cars that runs on Hydrogen. Bear with me here. Read this one carefully. Hydrogen fuel. Yes, hydrogen fuel. This one has met opposition from the Feds and the oil companies alike. This fuel is my choice for the future as ANYONE can produce it. I know of a local telephone company that has been experimenting with this fuel and it works great! The phone company has several remote cellular telephone sites around a large metropolitan area. Each one of these cell sites has a series of solar panels used to keep the batteries in the cell sites charged for backup power in case of a A/C power outage. Since the batteries have a limit as to how much charge they require, the excess power from the solar panels is used to generate hydrogen. The hydrogen is produced through electrolysis of the water produced by the condensation of air conditioning system in the cell site. Keep in mind, the equipment in a cellular telephone hut puts out a lot of heat, so the AC runs pretty much all year long. This hydrogen is stored in cylinders at the cell site.

Now comes the fun part. These sites are regularly maintained by the phone company. The phone company vehicles that are used to service these sites run entirely on hydrogen fuel. As they drive from one cell site to the next, they top off the fuel level in the vehicle with the hydrogen produced in the cell site.

Why do you suppose the Feds and the big oil companies have opposed hydrogen fuel? Well, they say it is dangerous, citing incidents like the Hindenburg, but the real reason is YOU CAN MAKE HYDROGEN FUEL AT HOME. If everyone could make their own fuel (granted, the quantity of fuel produced in home plants would be rather small) the Feds couldn't regulate (read: TAX) it and the oil companies would not be selling that fuel. Take money away from Big Brother and his buddy Old Man Oil and they get a bit pissy.

8) Fire whoever designed the Aztek and the Escalade. ACK! Two of the ugliest vehicles to ever come out of Detroit.



Ron

[rudutch]

Electric cars - you only shift the production of energy from the vehicle to some other source and then accrue the the inefficiencies of power transport. Where the car itself uses less energy the total energy required to run it is greater, albeit cheaper. Next, what are the envioremental effects of creating, maintaining and recycling the batteries?

Plus, electric cars are death traps. I personally don't want to be in an accident in a vehicle with 300 Amps coursing through it.

ding ding we have a winner,

note: a 12v 200ah deep cycle battery will put out over 700 amps when shorted for several minutes (fusing required)

[Don]

I didn't mean to get this thread sidetracked by questioning rear wheel drive vs front wheel drive.

However...

As a mechanical engineer and former auto mechanic believe that the average driver is better off with (and desires) front wheel drive. It's more stable in most conditions and nearly foolproof from a handling perspective. It is also cheaper to build. However maintenance can be much more expensive in a poorly engineered front wheel drive car.

From a performance perspective I prefer rear wheel drive. It's a better handling design for a good driver. Even my 133hp Miata can be easily steered with the throttle when the car is near it's limits.

In any case, the typical BMW and MB driver are buying for status rather than rear wheel drive. Many of them would be happier with a front wheel drive car.

I realize that traction control and tires have come a long way, but when I was younger I worked for American Sunroof Corporation. We did the "factory" sunroof, T-Top and convertible installs for the big three.
Our facility had a steep entrance that would get icy. When it was icy we would have to push the rear wheel drive Coupe De Villes into the building. We would drive the front wheel drive El Dorados in with no problems whatsoever.

[NMCA_Ron]

Traction control? Oh, come on....

What we need are better drivers, not cars that drive for them. Geez...

[Vics]

From a consumer point of view, I've been very happy with what Detroit has offered me in the past as well as now.

I live a modest lifestyle and I guess you could say my car reflects that. I currentley drive a 2005 Ford Focus that I bought new and I love it. I like that size of a car, good features, it's fun to drive, I've had NO problems with it and it's great on gas.

[juniorspecial]

Hydrogen as an auto fuel?

What about the explosion problem? Hydrogen is awfully hard to keep around without it blowing up...

[Jonnda]

2) A new car should NOT have as standard equipment the following items: Air conditioning, power seats, power windows, power door locks, automatic transmission, GPS, power steering, CD changer, anti-theft, etc... These should be options. The only reason the auto manufacturers make these standard items is so you, the customer, will have to pay a higher price (read: profit margin) for a car with features you may or may not want or need. Why have bells and whistles if you are not gonna ring or toot? Give us a basic car for cryin' out loud!

Achhem!


It's called the Ariel Atom. I seem to recall them once being cheaper then they are now, but anyhow one can't get much more basic then that in a new car these days. next up is:



lotus elise.

Rather basic for a car like that.
And neither of them came from detroit, both have English roots... And I'd be happy to drive either one.

Or, you could just go out and buy a not too old daewoo


I liked the aztek show car, not so much the production vehicle.

WHy bother with spending energy to make hydrogen when you could just charge an electric car right from the solor panels that are theoretically on your house?

[juniorspecial]

That Atom would be a drag to drive about 8 months of the year here in Michigan.

[Don]

Traction control? Oh, come on....

What we need are better drivers, not cars that drive for them. Geez...

Unless we return driving to being a privilege rather than a right and start properly training drivers, and retraining drivers regularly, that won't happen!

BTW, I am not a proponent of traction control!

[Don]

Double post!!!

[Jonnda]

That Atom would be a drag to drive about 8 months of the year here in Michigan.

maybe. If you are like my brother, maybe not. He drives a 1971 MG midget year round in the chicagoland area when it's operational (which impressively has been most of the time these days). The following demonstrates his attitude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqjZl...B080A765000E1A

[Don]

maybe. If you are like my brother, maybe not. He drives a 1971 MG midget year round in the chicagoland area when it's operational (which impressively has been most of the time these days). The following demonstrates his attitude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqjZl...B080A765000E1A

That's awesome! I drive my car top down from April through November (down to about 30 degrees F here in Massachusetts).
I avoid rain when I can though I've enjoyed a few good storms over the years! I just roll up the side windows and drive faster! I wear a Schott Perfecto motorcycle jacket (the label is in my avatar) with a removable fur collar on the cold days.

BTW, I had a 1971 MG Midget as a daily driver. I had a tonneau for it like that MGA. I crashed it on ice in February!

A friend has a Lotus Europa. I used to tease him that there were only two types of cars- roadsters and everything else!

[Jonnda]

That's awesome! I drive my car top down from April through November (down to about 30 degrees F here in Massachusetts).
I avoid rain when I can though I've enjoyed a few good storms over the years! I just roll up the side windows and drive faster! I wear a Schott Perfecto motorcycle jacket (the label is in my avatar) with a removable fur collar on the cold days.

BTW, I had a 1971 MG Midget as a daily driver. I had a tonneau for it like that MGA. I crashed it on ice in February!

A friend has a Lotus Europa. I used to tease him that there were only two types of cars- roadsters and everything else!

^_^

Sorry to hear about the ice, brother's Midget recently rear ended a pickup truck and broke the headlights and dented things up a bit. It was raining and he some how misjudged his stopping distance in the wet. I think I recall him blaming it on messing with his cell phone, which he somewhat despises. He found a way to straighten out the part of the fender that holds the headlight buckets using midget brake drums and a hydraulic press, and says it's almost good as it was before.

As for me, I have a 1973 MG BGT that only has about 7600 miles on it... if I can get it running after 25 or so years of storage by the previous owner. Mysterious timing issues are it's gremlins, and my brother thinks it needs new piston rings. Till then I'm running a 94(?) Light metalic blue toyota corolla, not a bad car but it has no radio .

[redb]

In any case, the typical BMW and MB driver are buying for status rather than rear wheel drive. Many of them would be happier with a front wheel drive car.

The first part is absolutely true. RWD is not the main drawing factor of the vehicle. Well, status AND the quality of the "driving experience" you get from having nice seats and plastics and cool things to play with.

The second part, if it were true why aren't most of the bmw and mercs out there running with all wheel drive which is an option of a LOT of merc and bmw (and audi) cars? Or porsches?

People get into one a bmw or mercedes and go "wow I cant believe this car drives so well, the engine is smooth and it just goes wherever I point it and it just feels right". Part of that is weight dristribution, drive train, engine design, suspension, but I dont think you would sell many front wheel drive "compact executive cars".



Here is a crazy idea though, lets get good public transportation like you get in boston, new york or san francisco in EVERY major city so that detroit can focus on building better cars and not having to put some peice of shit "family sedan" out so every family can have 3 vehicles. With good public transportation, families could go back to having one mid sized or full sized sedan/station wagon/minivan/truck that could cover weekend outings and the occasional road trip.

They could put out less vehicles, make each one better, and would have to spend less on warranty since they have less cars to deal with claims too.

Ron, as an FYI, hydrogen cars have an electric motor. Having an internal combustion engine that runs on hydrogen is at this point in time far too dangerous.

I also think electric cars are made of fail. I would rather see someone come up with a way to dramatically reduce carbon in the atmosphere and make synthetic fuel so I can still have a cool car =/

[Jonnda]

Speaking of Mercedes, I became a fan of the 240D and other cars like it from that era of the company when i took a ride in a friend's Mercedes 240D. Mainly because despite the age of the car, it still was going strong and everything about the car said quality over-engineering. It started when I closed the door, which closed like it was on an armored car- or a bank vault. This is driving experince I want from a Mercedes, a tank that keeps going like the energizer bunny with a few cushy extras on the side.

But i know at heart i am a small brittish car person.

[Don]

I meant FWD as opposed to RWD. My CR-V has "Realtime" 4WD and I love it. However, it's far more complex than FWD and I only need it a dozen times a year, maybe less.

[redb]

I meant FWD as opposed to RWD. My CR-V has "Realtime" 4WD and I love it. However, it's far more complex than FWD and I only need it a dozen times a year, maybe less.

Okey dokey.

FWIW I think its a bit silly to only consider drive type in vehicle choice, but I think it would go a long way to making detroit's cars more appealing.

[NMCA_Ron]

Why bother with spending energy to make hydrogen when you could just charge an electric car right from the solor panels that are theoretically on your house?

I don't have a problem with using solar panels to charge batteries, but what I do have a problem with is all the tree huggers touting electric cars as "green" when the batteries that power them are a nasty proposition at best to manufacture and dispose of. I guess if it is "out of sight, out of mind" the ecologists won't care, huh?


Ron

[Wilko]

Hydrogen is better ina few ways. One of the most novel is that the byproduct of burning hydrogen is water. Pure water.

[majwild1]

I also think electric cars are made of fail. I would rather see someone come up with a way to dramatically reduce carbon in the atmosphere and make synthetic fuel so I can still have a cool car =/

They've have tried it already with the so called economical E-85 B.S. .
We have a E85 plant here were I live and the cost to run E85 is more expensive. Looking at the big picture not only do you get crappy mileage on E85 the cost to use it is not that much cheaper than running gas, some areas it is more expensive to buy E85 than gas. Now what has the cost to producing E85 done to the price of food, anything that is corn or grain based has gone up in price, I would buy corn for my corn furnace for 1.84 a bushel prior to all this E85 B.S. now it is over 5.00 the only people that are benefiting form ethanol is the farmer. now this new synthetic fuel made from sea weed this will never take off they will never be able to produce enough to meet demands. If people want to get better fuel mileage with there current car just slow down just by slowing down to 65 from 70 can get you a couple of miles per gallon more but everyone is in a big hurry to go to the store.

[NMCA_Ron]

Hyrdorgen IS an unstable gas. This is what makes it an exceptional fuel. Storing it in approved containers is not a risky proposition, but transferring it TO those containers does pose some risk. As seems to be the case lately, everything needs to be made idiot-proof to keep the idiots from killing themselves or others. Why is it common sense is no longer common?


Ron

[Offshore Angler]

Actually, hydrogen is a pretty stable gas. You can heat it to plasma and not have it explode. It is pretty combustible though.

I studied hydrogen extensively when working on supersonic combustion. It has a high Joules per mole heating value which gives plenty of zip. The problem with using it in liquid form for an aircraft is that its density is so low the propellant tanks need to be huge and you end up with too much aerodynamic drag. So the gain in heating value is cancelled out by the extra thrust you need to generate to push the fuel tank through the air.

The low density issue becomes an issue for road vehicles and distribution networks as well.

The answer that makes sense from an energy economy standpoint is always rail. You can move a single person coast-to-coast on about 5 gallons of fuel. Steel wheels on steel rails have very low rolling resistance. The secret to fuel economy in cars is in tire technology as well.

[juniorspecial]

Hmmm. So, we put rails on all the streets, and use wireless computer technology to control the switching and the driving, and everyone rides a fuel-efficient personal railroad? So you could just sit in your "RailPod" and work on your computer and get moved around?

Cool.

[Blue Light]

Hybrids are interesting, and they do work. But I think it's just interesting technology that will be superseded by something else in another decade.

Honda is already beta testing a hydrogen/fuel cell called the Clarity. Look it up if want more info. GM and BMW also have streetrunners out there. All crazy expensive, of course, but it's a start.
We should always keep moving forward.

It seems that we all want a reasonably priced car. One problem is that it has been hard for an American company to make a profit making small cars. I don't know, Japan seems able to do it.
Now, don't get me started on the trade imbalance because one way Japan had such a huge advantage pricewise in the '70s was an artificially low yen. They finally let it float in the mid-80s.
Right now, China's yuan is WAY lower in value than it should be, considering the vast jillions of money flowing into their coffers. But it guarantees that they can undercut just about anybody now in price.

I'd like to see some snappy compact sedans come out of Detroit. You know, designed as if they weren't ashamed of it.

[marcenfender]

Part of the responsibility for the downturn in auto sales is the American consumer's demand for a better (ie: more durable) vehicle.

I don't think there's any dispute that Detroit has made some real reekers in the past. But the quality of recent domestically-made cars has indeed improved dramatically.

Thus, folks are keeping their cars longer than ever before. In 1984 the average length of ownership for a GM car or truck was around 42 months. Today, we see people keeping these vehicles for eight or ten years (even longer in some instances).

As a result, dealers see repeat customers far less often than before -- which in practical terms means less annual turnover of inventory. The import brands are in this same boat -- the cars are better-made, folks tend to hold onto them longer, and the dealers deliver less units per model year.

Do I have the answer? Nope.

But the above factors are a significant part of the equation and need to be given their due.

I concur!

Since money is in consumable products, years ago, the big 3 decided to build consumable autos that were traded every 2 or 3 years because that's all they would last. Many were lucky to get through their 12,000 mile warranty without something going wrong.

Then Japan came along and showed us that there were alternatives and they came with 50,000 and 100,000 mile warranties. The big 3 fell in line and now this is the end result. Better cars, people keeping them longer so fewer sold.

Why is the guy at Best Buy telling me that the average life expectancy of a 21" color TV is only 3 to 5 years? I have an old Roper deep freeze that still works today that my grandmother gave me when I got my first house. It's over 50 years old and has never had a thing done to it.

I think Americans are tired of building junk. Our technologies come up with a great idea and then Japan shows us how to build it to last. Corporate America doesn't want their products to last. They want us to buy a new car, TV, freezer, whatever every 2 or 3 years. I think our economy is the wakeup call they've needed for a long time.

Whatever happened to that 100 mpg carbeaurator?

[phantomman]

I think Americans are tired of building junk.

I dunno about that, but I'm day-amm tired of some slick Herb Tarlek type in a seer-sucker suit and in serious need of a breath mint trine to sell it to me!

[Blue Light]

I spent three days in a Corvette Z06 last summer. I still can't get that car out of my head. I've driven some hot cars in my life, but that was hands-down one of the most fun pieces I've ever driven.

And I'm wondering with a clutching grief -- are Vettes going to get put out to pasture? Say it ain't so!

[Offshore Angler]

I don't agree that americans are building junk. I have a domestic vehicle with 80,000 miles on it that looks, runs, and rides like the day it was new. And it leads a tough life. One of my friends has a domestic vehicle with 240,000 miles on it. Still looks and runs great. And it works pretty hard too.

I think a bunch of people are clinging to the paradigm of the 70's and 80's. Drive a new Cadillac and tell me it isn't great. Or a Corvette, or F150, or even the new Mustang. Pretty nice cars are coming out of some of the domestic makers.

Hey, if people want to argue over who makes the best POS econobox well - you gets what you pay for. They ALL suck.

[NeoFauve]

Detroit could stop lobbying for lower CAFE standards and re-purpose those efforts toward health-care reform or Medicare-for-all, as a way to cut costs without expecting blue-collar Americans to work for Daewoo wages.


The equating of econobox and POS, or even reflexively referring to a fuel efficient car as an "econobox" is a big part of the mindset that got us where we are.

[CocoTone]

improved weight distribution. bmw and merc have been making affordable (relatively speaking to the rest of their line and considering their quality of components) commuter cars in rear wheel drive like the merc c class and the bmw e46 3 series for a long time. There is also the issue of sending more than 200hp to the front wheels being bad. All of the electronics limit the power, if you were going to do that, get a smaller engine since youll save on the gas mileage.

right now there arent very many cars more in demand than the compact german cars; so build that, but american.

it doesnt have to be the same luxury level, just make the car's driving ability that good.

Man, am I ever glad your not in charge of GM or Chrysler!! You don't have a clue as to what they need.

CT.

[djinn1973]

I think its too late for a lot of guys my age (I'm 35) what I would do if I were in charge is slowly phase out all the redundancy.
Like some one here has already touched on, you don't need to offer what is essentially the same car under three different badges when you could start with a "base model" and then offer packages and upgrades. Aside from something like that, I would start producing small well built cars in the five to seven thousand dollar range, the idea being build a car that a kid with a summer job (and a little help from his or her parents) could afford to buy outright.
Ford and Chevy lost an entire generation to inexpensive but well built imports. In addition to all the other changes that need to be made, they are going to have to do some thing to encourage our kids to start buying American again.

[marcenfender]

I dunno about that, but I'm day-amm tired of some slick Herb Tarlek type in a seer-sucker suit and in serious need of a breath mint trine to sell it to me!

LOL....... That reminded me of a flight from Dallas to Kansas City a few years back. It was super crowded 1 hour business flight and a huge man sitting next to me, with breath that smelled like he'd just eaten the ass-end out of a skunk, and being in radio, decided to tell me all about it.

[redcoats1976]

i think the new mustangs are pretty hot,and ive seen them around here new for 13,900.but my 93 honda del sol still runs and looks good so i will probably be driving it for a few more years...

[TT100]

I just drove my sister's PT Cruiser. Nice fit and finish but that's the second or third US car I've experienced that completely missed the boat in terms of ergonomics. The seats are 3/4 scale. No thigh support and all the seatback contours are in the wrong place. I was ready to get out after 15 minutes. The engine was an anemic wheezer that was ok once up to 70. Very smooth cruising but really strains off the light and takes it's time gathering speed to finish a pass.

With my family of four, even with two being under 10, it would be a very uncomfortable car for trips and has very little storage. Am I being a little hard on the Cruiser? Perhaps, but like it or not, the American family car of choice has become the SUV. Or the Crown Vic. Even with my company Cherokee, I can't seat more than 5. Have vehicle cabins become to narrow for split bench front seats?

Speaking of Cherokee, with Chrysler likely to wed Fiat and looking for bailouts, they still roll out the Cherokee as their primary vehicle at a recent show boasting about it's 21+ mpg hwy.

What is the answer?

TT

[Blue Light]

I'm ready to love American cars. Maybe that's a generational thing, I don't know. I liked 'em as a kid, so I want to like them again.
In 1989 I bought a new Pontiac Grand Prix and ran it 140,000 miles and barely did a thing to it. The generator needed replacing. The thermostat. That was about it.

The GMC Acadia is a fine SUV, the Chevy Malibu is a very nice sedan. Ford's Fusion and its upscale sibling, the Lincoln MKZ, are pretty good.
Under Mercedes ownership, the Chrysler product line was not fully developed. The PT Cruiser that TT100 mentions, that car should have *evolved.* But it didn't. They just ran it into the ground and ditched it. This is so common to Detroit.

[Folk_guy]

I actually was car shopping this week, and wound up buying a 1 year old HHR, even with all the incentives on the new ones they were still too much money. One of the problems I had was every car I looked at was loaded, with power everything, serius radio, GPS, etc. I would have loved to have found a vehicle in the model I was looking for with the only options being Cruise control and AC.

[phantomman]

One of the problems I had was every car I looked at was loaded, with power everything, serius radio, GPS, etc.

Tha's another thang that p*sses me off to no end......"packages". An' this phenomenon ain' limited to domestic -- them imports do it as well.

Hay-ell, if'n I wanna look at the moon I'll pull the vee-hickle offa the road, git out, spread a blanket on the grass, lay down an' by God look at it. I don' want no steenking "moon roof"......you gaze at the moon while drivin' an' yer likely to end up as some Kenworth's hood ornament!

Ditto wif the leather -- never developed the taste for it. I like to eat bovine by-products......jus' ain' all that fond of settin' on 'em. Leather reminds me of Freddie Mercury hollerin' to some backstage roadie "Bring me another boy -- I've broken this one!"

How 'bout "standard eight-passenger seating"? Lemme give y'all a clue......you got that many kids, you don' need no friggin' minivan. YOU NEED THERAPY! "Are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet......? 'Nuff said.

Gnome saing?