MIA vs MIM, Whats all the hoopla????

[Aaron]

Hmmmm.

MIA, better electronics, fewer body pieces, upgraded hardware, cost a lot more.

MIM, more vintage style electronics and hardware, possibly more body sections (except my ashwood model), more affordable for every day working players plus a lot more room for modifications without hitting price of an MIA.

Just my humble opinion, been playing MIM and MIJ Strats my whole playing career, no major beefs what-so-ever.

Play a few find the one you like and buy it, then just have fun. No debates, no worries, no hassles.

Oh, by the way, this was not ment to sound mean or degrading in any way.

[jeru]

...been playing MIM and MIJ Strats my whole playing career, no major beefs what-so-ever.

Play a few find the one you like and buy it, then just have fun. No debates, no worries, no hassles.

YUP.

My most beloved fender is a CIJ.

I just sold off my american-made strat and b-bender, and as far as fenders go now I just have the CIJ custom tele and the MIM '69 thinline reissue. They are great insteruments. In my case, it's the player part of the equation that needs improvement!

[Don]

In some ways, I prefer an MIM Std. over and American Std., however, if I'm interested in a bolt on neck guitar, I'd rather assemble it from parts that are closer to my liking.

[curtisstetka]

Several years ago I bought my first Tele. I compared almost every Tele in the place. I was ready to go home with a MIM if it had won the shootout.

Nope. The MIA Tele I eventually bought was clearly a superior instrument to the MIM Teles that were there.

I'm not making a blanket statement about MIA vs MIM quality. You have to evaluate an instrument on its merits. (If only you can avoid looking at the headstock!)

[redb]

Is there hooplah?

Personally I dont find the american guitars to be a signifigant enough upgrade to warrant the extra money you need to pay for one.

Value for money is always skewed towards the bottom, you start paying a LOT for each incremental upgrade as you move up through a line in general, though exceptions / sudden jumps do exist.

Anyway I do think that the american guitars are better, but I wouldnt pay the old (1000USD) price for a new one, much less the new hiked price. However I do seem them go for 600ish occasionally in good condition and I would certainly part with that much if I was looking to upgrade to a better sounding instrument. I should point out that I see custom shop guitars go for only a few hundred more than the new price, infrequently sure, but it does happen, after all I am the benificiary of such a deal.

[hippiebob01]

A new standard MIM strat with upgraded AlNiCo pickups is a damn nice guitar for the money, IMO... But this is coming from a guy that plays a CV Precision Bass more than anything else.

YMMV

[concert410]

I just recieved a MIM Strat from a friend whose kid never took to music. It is clearly the 3rd place finisher behind my American Standard Strats and my MIJ '72 ri. Nothing wrong with the MIM, it plays well and it looks nice, but it definitely is a quality level below my MIJ and 2 levels below my MIA Strats. YMMV

[rudutch]

in my opinion

1) electronics
2) fret work
3) resale value

I have had more than one of each

[DanD]

In some ways, I prefer an MIM Std. over and American Std., however, if I'm interested in a bolt on neck guitar, I'd rather assemble it from parts that are closer to my liking.

+1

[phantomman]

Originally Posted by Don
In some ways, I prefer an MIM Std. over and American Std., however, if I'm interested in a bolt on neck guitar, I'd rather assemble it from parts that are closer to my liking.

+1

+2

[Marcondo]

If you use logic the more expensive USA made Fenders should have better parts finish wood sound playability and everything else should be better cause they cost more.

In my experiences owning 15 different MIM's all Classic and Artist series and 4 MIJ's 1 MIC Fender the CV Tele and 6 USA made Fenders 4 CS models and 2 regular production models the foreign made Fenders all had better fit and finish workmanship sound and playability than any of the USA models I owned.

Whats really funny is the CV the least expensive one $300 has the best fretwork and finish and playablity of all of them so go figure.

[ch willie]

In my experiences owning 15 different MIM's all Classic and Artist series and 4 MIJ's 1 MIC Fender the CV Tele and 6 USA made Fenders 4 CS models and 2 regular production models the foreign made Fenders all had better fit and finish workmanship sound and playability than any of the USA models I owned.

Whats really funny is the CV the least expensive one $300 has the best fretwork and finish and playablity of all of them so go figure.

My experience is analogous to yours (but not equal). I've owned 2 MIA Strats now, a MIJ, and my current MIM. No question, the MIM sounds and plays better than the other Strats I've owned. One day, I might put some different pickups in it, but for now, I'm super happy with the tone and playability. It came out of the box with an excellent set up.

[Kap'n]

There are good guitars being made everywhere.

For some reason, my MIM tele gets the most play time these days. It was cheaper than virtually every other guitar I own by at least a factor of two.

[kaicho8888]

Does this mean great tone comes from fingers... ?

...more so than MIA, or MIJ,or CIJ or MIM?

...I spend more time practicing and enjoy playing my MIM...

[phantomman]

Does this mean great tone comes from fingers... ?

(it does once you change that goofy avatar......)

[dzguitar10]

I own a MIM Strat with a Callaham vintage bridge aasembly, Fender Hot Noiseless pickups and upgraded tuners. When I bought it I tried out at least half a dozen MIA's and several MIM's and the MIM was every bit as nice and 1/3 the price! Mine is a three piece alder body not any different than the MIA counterparts. Reason I know this... I refinished the body! However I have played some of the questionable 5 piece offerings too and they are good guitars too. As I have stated before and if anyone on here wanted to do a search there is an article from a guy who took a tour of the facility in Mexico. His findings were as follows:

1) ALL Fender bodies and necks are now produced in the Mexico plant!
2)Once a week or so the Fender CS guys and other Fender QC people go to Mexico and "cherry pick" what they want and the rest become MIM guitars... that is a fact... he had pictures showing the process!
3) Aside from the wood they are made from the only other difference are the pickups, tuners and the bridges.

He also had some other information regarding this issue between MIA's and MIM's guitars. I am not saying that a MIM is better than it's American equivilant but given the CNC milling processes and QC nowadays the gap had been reduced to nearly nothing. As I stated eariler in this post I changed the pickups, tuners and bridge... not because they weren't of decent quality but because I was modifying this axe to be a #1 player... to be very reliable and stable under gigging conditions... it certainly is now for sure!

On another note though... I just purchased my first Tele... a Squire CV series. And I must say that I have been VERY impressed with this guitar since day one! The fit, finish and attention to detail are second to none. It is a very stunning guitar for the $300 I bought it for.

I closing I have to say that I own 12 electrics right now and most of them cost quite a bit more than and in some cases a lot more than either MIM Strat or Squire CV Tele but I am very happy with these guitars. As a former touring and recording guitarist and now part-time musician, hobby luthier and gear whore... I think I know in MY hands what a guitar should do... and it doesn't matter if I'm playing a $5000 dollar Les Paul or a damn 2 x 4 with pickups... it'll sound like me! Of course I'd be setting that 2 x 4 up the way I like 'em... another reason I like building guitars... I can always get what I want... not what some corporate "bean-counter" determines is right for me.

[Custom 5]

I have become "label blind." I have so many guitars now, all I consider to be prime examples of their body types.

Lots of years ago I learned to do set-ups and builds so, all of my stuff gets heavily scrutinized before it goes on stage.

There are great examples of guitars from all models and brands. Some of them just need a little more coaxing then others to reveal their potential.

But maybe the most important thing is usage. There are lots of guys who don't know how to do anything on their guitars. They just play 'em. If they shop and find one that plays great, sounds great and speaks their language, they buy it. They're not caught in the fog thinking "if I just drop a set of new pickups in here with a new trem block, saddles and tuners, then I'll have a great guitar."

Sorry for the long post.

So some guys are free from all the hoopla and just play what happens to be set-up well in the store and others will get real cerebral about it. At the end of the day everyone is happy because they found something they like for their own personal use.

Not many guitars are actually better than others, they're just in search of different owners. I got mine!

[DanD]

I have become "label blind." I have so many guitars now, all I consider to be prime examples of their body types. ...

The early Japanese ESPs, Tokais, JV and recent Chinese CV series Squiers did the same thing to me.

I'm a reformed MIA guitar-a-holic these days. There are some features of the upper end MIA series (mainly nitro finishes) I'd like to see on lower priced guitars. But as has been said below, the cost for such upgrades exceeds the value.

IMHO nitro is not the $700 - $1000 upgrade Fender and Gibson would like you to believe.

My son has been playing out with the same early model MIM Squier Strat I got him new for his 12th birthday in '94.

The only deviations from stock are a set of ex G&L Sperzel tuning machines I installed for him in '96 and a refret in '03.

It looks like a true road dog now and sounds pretty darn good through his (my ex) Music Man 2/10.

When I hear him playing I kinda' regret giving him that amp...

[Custom 5]

IMHO nitro is not the $700 - $1000 upgrade Fender and Gibson would like you to believe.

I'll part company with you on that one. You can do a complete poly finish in about 8 days. A nitro finish takes a few months to do properly and you have to store all that inventory somewhere while it dries between applications.

Maybe I'm a little off but, I seldom get into specifics and features as opposed to picking up a guitar and saying, "hey, this one plays and sounds great!" The details beyond that make me sleepy.

[DanD]

I'll part company with you on that one. You can do a complete poly finish in about 8 days. A nitro finish takes a few months to do properly and you have to store all that inventory somewhere while it dries between applications.
...

I'm not sure that the 3 months curing is accurate these days. I've seen a Gibson tour on video where they show the finish curing process. My understanding is that lacquer can be cured in a week now using the process discussed here:

http://www.bamboorodmaking.com/html/finishing_-_uv.html

Quote from article:

"I would ask the folks at Winston or the Montana division of Gibson Guitar Company. I know Gibson flash dries their acoustic guitars -- dry in a flash. You can imagine dust problems and assembly line problems with the body surfaces of an acoustic guitar. The automotive industry surely does as well. I know there is a special catalyst in the Gibson lacquer. I do not know what you would do to a spar to make it dry in seconds. I am sure that the Winston folks have moseyed over to Gibson and watched the process. (Chris Lucker)"

I know the Gibson video is out there. Maybe somebody will hook us up with a link.

I'm not sure if Fender is using this process or not, but I highly doubt that they are unaware of it.

Whether or not Fender's Custom Builders use it is another question.

[kaicho8888]

(it does once you change that goofy avatar......)

Hey PM,
The goofy picture is my baby only a father could love! lol

[DanD]

Lacquer finish update:

Quote from Gibson:

"During lacquering the guitars make multiple trips through an oven set to 110-degrees to promote drying between the applications of layers. Depending on humidity and other atmospheric conditions it typically takes eight or nine hours to get all six coats of dry lacquer on a guitar."

Quote was taken from 2/3 the way down on this page:

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyl...09-gibson-usa/

With new technology the nitro process is not much more time consuming than poly.

[holmis63]

Back to topic, i think all my Fenders are decent guitars and the MIM baja hold up to both my MIA. I appreciate my MIJ Squier silver series strat the most, sound and look and feels as good as the others after a full swap of the electronics and pups and i don´t have to nurse it like a baby!

I f you are happy with your Guitar, just rock on

[demioblue]

As I have stated before and if anyone on here wanted to do a search there is an article from a guy who took a tour of the facility in Mexico. His findings were as follows:

1) ALL Fender bodies and necks are now produced in the Mexico plant!
2)Once a week or so the Fender CS guys and other Fender QC people go to Mexico and "cherry pick" what they want and the rest become MIM guitars... that is a fact... he had pictures showing the process!
3) Aside from the wood they are made from the only other difference are the pickups, tuners and the bridges.

I don't know. This is a pretty big point for me already. I don't know why no one picks up on this. The fact that "special" pieces were picked from the stash should already tell you that apparently the better tone woods are reserved for the MIAs and CS pieces. The MIMs get the rest.

Lets see this for a minute: This means that the wood in the MIA is already supposed to be better. It's supposed to resonate better or sound more musical with hit. Thing is, it's not the same to assume they all come from the same source. MIMs and MIAs may come from the same physical stack, but tree growth is organic, and no 2 pieces are alike. Of course, if you're quantifying using brazilian rosewood, then that's different, because you'd never have an MIM using BRW. or MIA for that matter. Only CS.

So, when you pay more for an MIA, you're supposed to be paying more for better parts, AND a better piece of wood.

Of course, that's not all that makes up a good guitar. Setup also counts for quite a bit. A well set up MIM can probably beat the tar out of a poorly setup MIA. I don't doubt that.

I guess, they key here is to simply buy what you can afford, and enjoy it. The minute you begin to rationalise your purchase, you'll lose the point.

[dzguitar10]

I don't know. This is a pretty big point for me already. I don't know why no one picks up on this. The fact that "special" pieces were picked from the stash should already tell you that apparently the better tone woods are reserved for the MIAs and CS pieces. The MIMs get the rest.

Lets see this for a minute: This means that the wood in the MIA is already supposed to be better. It's supposed to resonate better or sound more musical with hit. Thing is, it's not the same to assume they all come from the same source. MIMs and MIAs may come from the same physical stack, but tree growth is organic, and no 2 pieces are alike. Of course, if you're quantifying using brazilian rosewood, then that's different, because you'd never have an MIM using BRW. or MIA for that matter. Only CS.

So, when you pay more for an MIA, you're supposed to be paying more for better parts, AND a better piece of wood.

Of course, that's not all that makes up a good guitar. Setup also counts for quite a bit. A well set up MIM can probably beat the tar out of a poorly setup MIA. I don't doubt that.

I guess, they key here is to simply buy what you can afford, and enjoy it. The minute you begin to rationalise your purchase, you'll lose the point.

I take from the fellas observations regarding the Fender Mexico plant that when the QC and CS guys drop by they pick the "nicer" looking bodies and necks for their offerings. Does that mean that they are better sounding... obviously the answer is NO! And yes... setup and hardware also make a major contribution to the way the guitar sounds or plays. I never worried about what people on the internet forums said when I made my purchase of a MIM Strat. I tried out many MIA's as well as MIM's and decided to buy the one that sounded best unplugged and plugged up. To me it is more critical with bolt-on necked guitars to play them unplugged... but hey that's just me. I never have bought a "pig" doing that!

[redb]

If the bodies really were the same then why are mim bodies 5-7 pieces and often veneered for sunbursts and usas are 3 pieces and cs are whatever is good?

Just because the wood goes through the same place (obviously its probably coming from the same country or group of countries) does not mean that they are the same quality. To make that assumption is to discount the way in which a large company has to inventory to keep costs down.

By having all the wood go to mexico and having the usa guys and cs guys pick just what they are going to use they dont have to hold nearly as much extra wood, anything not picked out goes into the highest production number guitars.

There is too much of people either trying to make it sound like everything is the same or people trying to apply "magic mojo" to explain why cheap guitars are just as good as expensive guitars or expensive guitars cost more money.

At the end of the day what you are paying for is the market value of an average example of a line of guitars. Wood is too inconsistent to have a large run of guitars have absolute quality control where every guitar is the same.

Im sure the wood growers are splicing their best trees onto others to in essence "clone" them but even then there can be discrepencies because of soil variation in certain areas or temperatures not being good for creation of tone wood or whatever.

At this point you simple cannot judge an individual wood instrument based upon the line it is in or the price or the name on the headstock. What you can do is get some estimation of what you should be expecting from the guitar.

[dzguitar10]

There is too much of people either trying to make it sound like everything is the same or people trying to apply "magic mojo" to explain why cheap guitars are just as good as expensive guitars or expensive guitars cost more money.

My point in this whole debate is that with manufacturing processes being what they are today even mediocre instruments are better than most "production" made guitars from 20 years ago.

I have spent the last 25 years building, repairing and restoring instruments for others and myself. I feel I am pretty qualified to make certain statements about quality, fit and finish. I started tearing apart guitars and tweaking them when I was 13 years old... I'm 48 now. I also maintain and tweak on two classic cars I restored which I can elaborate on offline... I've done all that work myself! My "day" job I work as a engineer/technical publications manager in a manufacturing facility and have done so for more than 25 years for various employers as well as my current one.

Fender is not unlike ANY company trying to reduce its bottom line in order to make more money. I hear daily here where I work... CUT COSTS!!! The only way to do that 99.9% of the time is to utilize cheaper materials, cheaper processes or reduce labor costs. In a lot of cases they do all three and more.

I don't play guitars because they are made in the U.S.A. or because of their brand name. I play guitars that suit me! Also another reason why I build guitars too! Even if I find a particular off-the-shelf axe... I tweak it to suit my taste... not what some marketing guru or corporate bean counter thinks I might like.

Anybody that thinks they can tell the difference between a 3 piece alder body and one that is 5-7 pieces when it is poly-coated and assembled, setup correctly and has the same neck (21 fret of course) using today’s manufacturing processes is spouting BS! I can take my MIM and a MIA... cover the headstocks and let you or anyone play them and you couldn't tell me which one is which! In fact I'd go one further because I know how many pieces of wood my MIM is made from... 3! I could take three MIA Strats setup from the factory and one MIM that I setup ... and again cover the headstocks of all four and you would swear the MIM was a better guitar from fit, finish and tone if you didn't see the headstock.

In closing... You are paying more money for very little perceived quality! The differences are so minute now that if you want a superior instrument... build the damn thing! That's what I usually do.

Peace...

[Kap'n]

My point in this whole debate is that with manufacturing processes being what they are today even mediocre instruments are better than most "production" made guitars from 20 years ago.

Yes they are.

However, there's also a lot more homogenized sameness to instruments. Less character. Because everybody uses one of three or four pickup designs, three bridge designs......

[thegeezer]

I got a body from Warmouth that was two pieced, very lucky. I had a maple squire neck refetted and it fit snug in the pocket. The guitar was finished with tung oil. I got some Rio Grande pickups S/S/H with a coil tap on the humbucker that sounds quite natural. I use this as my main guitar. I paid about $700, what would fender charge? Oh yeah it has a graphite nut and saddles, I never break my strings.

[marcenfender]

If the bodies really were the same then why are mim bodies 5-7 pieces and often veneered for sunbursts and usas are 3 pieces and cs are whatever is good?

Maybe the Mexicans are better cabinet makers than the Americans. High dollar custom cabinets are constructed from multiple small pieces that are glues together to keep them from warping.

BTW... a lot of the MIA ash bodies are veneers on Alder. :)

[marcenfender]

I don't know. This is a pretty big point for me already. I don't know why no one picks up on this. The fact that "special" pieces were picked from the stash should already tell you that apparently the better tone woods are reserved for the MIAs and CS pieces. The MIMs get the rest.

I don't know. This is a pretty big point for me already. I don't know why no one picks up on this. The fact that "special" pieces were picked from the stash should already tell you that apparently the better tone woods are reserved for the MIAs and CS pieces. The MIMs get the rest.

Where did you get this information? Everything I've read says that they all get the same lumber. Only the CS and some artist series say SELECT.

What I have noticed is that the MIA guitars appear to have better electronics and hardware, yet everyone is swapping parts out for newer custom pieces.

The MIA's and the MIM's appear, according to instruments for sale on Caigslist, to lose value at close to the same rate. CS pieces and vintage pieces do better but give the MIM's time to become vintage.

I think MIA hype and labor are the real factors in the price and not all that much quality. How can you tell someone that plays for a living that his MIM strat doesn't sound as good as your MIA strat? It's all opinion based. I'm sure there are some MIA strats that do sound better than some MIM strats but I also think that goes both ways.

These are just my observations!

[dzguitar10]

Where did you get this information? Everything I've read says that they all get the same lumber. Only the CS and some artist series say SELECT.

What I have noticed is that the MIA guitars appear to have better electronics and hardware, yet everyone is swapping parts out for newer custom pieces.

The MIA's and the MIM's appear, according to instruments for sale on Caigslist, to lose value at close to the same rate. CS pieces and vintage pieces do better but give the MIM's time to become vintage.

I think MIA hype and labor are the real factors in the price and not all that much quality. How can you tell someone that plays for a living that his MIM strat doesn't sound as good as your MIA strat? It's all opinion based. I'm sure there are some MIA strats that do sound better than some MIM strats but I also think that goes both ways.

These are just my observations!

Amen! My point exactly... and well said I might add!

[redb]

DZ please do not think I am suggesting that more expensive is always better or that 3 peice bodies are better than 7, its just that some things have a higher cost attatched than other things.

I honestly believe that guitars are individual units and must be evaluated as such instead of say a line of speakers where every unit is exactly the same.

Are MIM guitars as good as MIA guitars on average? I wouldnt say so, but I dont care since I am buying one guitar not 700.

Look, at the end of the day there are some things I want on a guitar that dont come on certain lines of gutiars and if that means I have to spend more thats just the way it is.

TFF does have a little bit of "your guitar isnt better than mine just because it cost more", and the LPF has a little bit of "my guitar is better because its more expensive/from an exclusive line/tom murphy painted it" and I honestly believe the truth lies more along the lines of a guitar can never be GREATER than the sum of its parts, only sometimes the parts work together better than other times and some guitars are closer to optimal than others.

If you put a guitar together with a good neck and a good body and good hardware and good electronics it might sound good and it might not. If you put a guitar together with a bad neck and a bad body and bad pickups and bad hardware its always going to sound bad. And some things are perceived to be better and fender charges more for those things. I am NOT stating that I think mexican guitars or squiers are bad or that american guitars are good.

If anyone is happy with their guitar great, but is it fair to say someone wasted their money because they bought a more expensive guitar that they like? Even if your guitar is just as good, how is it fair to say that a guitar someone likes is just "hype" or "hoopla"?

I know some guys around here put together some great guitars that they feel are better than what the guys in souther california can do and Im sure they are putting together great instruments but sometimes the guys who sign their names on the guitars just do as good a job as you could ever expect a guitar builder to do.

I have an ipod. I hear a lot that ipods are overpriced and a ripoff and other, cheaper players are just as good or better. I dont care. I like my ipod, a lot. It does everything I want it to do, hasnt failed on me yet and I can give it to people like my grandmother who dont even know what windows is and they can get around it and listen to some music.

[dzguitar10]

I have expensive guitars I've bought and some I've built as well as some I've had given to me by the manufacturer to play for endorsements. And I own several that are lower priced. In my hands they all sound the way I want them to. Because I have spent the time to tweak the hell out of them.

Three of my favorite guitars are custom Jay Turser Les Paul style guitars given to me by the rep in my area to play as part of an endorsement deal. I own several Gibson Les Pauls... which are great... but the Tursers are every bit as good albeit they're made in China! And every time I use one at a gig I get several people coming wanting to know where I got them.

[dzguitar10]

I also own a 1959 Gibson Melody Maker... which I no longer use at gigs but these guitars were budget priced student guitars back then... not unlike a MIM Strat... you couldn't touch my '59 MM for less than $2K and even then I wouldn't sell it... I love it too much.

As for building guitars... I haven't built a "pig" yet when I selected the parts, body and neck! All of them (well over 30 now and have several more in the works right now) played great... sounded even better and weren't too bad looking either!

[dzguitar10]

I understand your point... but IMHO a Fender MIA Strat isn't worth the money they charge and a MIM Strat is a better value even if you have to upgrade the tuners, bridge, pickups and have the frets polished and everything re-setup... and in the end... you have a custom that isn't an "off-the-shelf" axe... plays better.. and stays in tune better... and sounds better than an "off-the-shelf" MIA Strat.

[dzguitar10]

Sorry for the multiple posts... for some friggin' reason its only letting me upload a few paragraphs at a time... weird-o-rama!

[redb]

I understand your point... but IMHO a Fender MIA Strat isn't worth the money they charge and a MIM Strat is a better value even if you have to upgrade the tuners, bridge, pickups and have the frets polished and everything re-setup... and in the end... you have a custom that isn't an "off-the-shelf" axe... plays better.. and stays in tune better... and sounds better than an "off-the-shelf" MIA Strat.

That is fine. Its all opinion.

But ragging on people for buying a nicer guitar is the exact same as saying something is crap just because its not as expensive.

Also, I dont believe you can make a blanket statement about MIM guitars with upgraded everything ALWAYS being better than MIA guitars.

[teamo]

I searched for many months before settling on a MIA. The pickups on the MIM did not sound as good to me. I also found that the MIM necks seemed to feel sharper around the edges at the ends of the frets. That's not to say that I didn't like the MIM and I was close to buying one but I just liked MIA better.

[Stonefreefuzz1]

That is fine. Its all opinion..

My opinion is "It's the Wizard not the Wand".