Naw, the sound doesn't carry very far out in the woods. We were perfect judging by crowd reaction and the bands that followed, using our gear.
Naw, the sound doesn't carry very far out in the woods. We were perfect judging by crowd reaction and the bands that followed, using our gear.
Context is everything. Sometimes real loud is just what the doctor ordered.
After more than 40 years of playing, I have come to the conclusion that loud rock music was the result of the invention of the bass guitar and not amplifiers for six string guitars. Getting a bass player to turn down is a futile endeavour. I have never been able to convince one yet. I have been told (not by bass players, mind you) that it is because of the wavelength of bass frequencies, i.e., they are long. As a result, bass players can't really hear themselves very well unless they are sufficiently far from their amps.Originally Posted by cwilliamrose
Or the other guys could have turned down.....Bill
Whatever the case, my theory is that rock and roll/rock got louder right after Leo made the electric bass.
Discuss.
"The beauty and profundity of God is more real than any mere calculation."
I think you may be onto somethin', Doc. My bass player brother often comments on this phenomenon. When he's usin' a "conventional" rig with the normal speaker arrangement (eg: A Sunn Coliseum Bass Amp wif a pair of rear-loaded Sunn 200S cabs, or a Sunn Model T wif a pair of SVW Goliaths) they're moderately loud systems that produce ample volume both in the venue and on the stage. But when he switches to his folded-horn Acoustic 370s (known -- sometime notoriously -- for generating extremely long waves) he claims it sometimes doesn't have enough stage volume. However, at the back of the club the owner often hasta re-nail the sheetrock back on the walls an' ceiling.
Between a modern electric bassist an' a heavy-handed drummer, there are bound to be volume "issues".
"When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."
Back when I played bass, I had a Sunn 2x15 folded horn cab. I could never hear myself.
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
For example, a low "A" note on a bass is 55hz. That's a wave that is 20 feet long.
Much to my chagrin, our bass player is the quietest member of our band. All you really hear of us is me (lead guitar) and the drummer. We both kinda go crazy... :-)
My bass player is actualy too quiet, too.
He plays with a pick and plucks very close to the bridge. No real "bottom" which leaves my two guitar band really mid-heavy.
Ditto. Tis probably why I NEED those bigger iron Fendah amps (so I can fill in the bottom a bit when playin riddum).
It's the drummer and guitar players trying to match the drummers volume. The drummer in turn tries to match the volume of the guitarists, it turns into a mess fast.
Last edited by thegeezer; 02-25-2009 at 08:43 AM.
Y'know, having played drums decently well, and also bass, in addition to guitar and vocals...It is very difficult to control the volume of a drum kit, but it can (and should) be done - at least in small clubs. There are sticks you can use, but those don't bounce right. There is no substitute for good technique...but then again in the heat of battle many if not most drummers tend to pound harder. But the fault is not just with them - everyone wants to hear themselves a bit louder than the others...this is part of the problem.
It becomes a vicious cycle.
Add to that the guitarist's desire to have cranked-amp tone, and the bassist's 20-foot-long wavelength issue...
It's no wonder that some of the pubs are having DJ's and Karaoke now...the volume is lower, the setup time is less, and the bar patrons who didn't come to see the band can sit around the bar and actually hear each other talk.
"I'm gonna find myself a girl
that can show me what laughter means
And we'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint-by-number dreams..."
I agree, We all should know how to control our dynamics to fit a room. I try but it takes a team effort.
Our band was getting really good at matching our volume to the venue.. and then we got a new member. This member has a great sound, but it takes active electronics, 5 strings of bass and a 1000 watt bass amp to produce this great sound. We have since lost the ability to match our volume to the venue. In fact, I now play through two amps just to get my guitar over and around the bass. The drummer now screams for more power and the lead singer complains about ringing ears.
A good, screaming Strat just might be the greatest guitar sound of all..... -Slash
Yeah, we went over the line this last time too... :-(
It's ALL about matching the venue isn't it?
Eh, what did ya say? Could you please repeat that...
I run the PA as well as play guitar in my band. The vocal monitors are so loud and clear, they'll blow your hair back! But when things get loud, and the guys start asking for more vocal monitor, I tell 'em "no, turn down your amp!" I think us guys have a responsibility to the venue to play what is appropriate, not try to match the volume of the loudest guy in the band. That's just not professional.
Last summer I was subbing at an outdoor biker benfit. There were 250 people there at the pavillion. At the end of the first song there was one drunk chick and her three buddies blabbing something about turn it up man. When they refused to get the volume down lower, I walked off the gig. It was so loud, it was actually painful.
My mantra:
"If it's too loud....
...turn it down."
Tone is in the fingers, eh? Let's hear your Vox, Marshall and Fender fingerings then...
Of course, the problem with everyone playing WAY loud is (unless maybe you have in ear monitors) you can't what anyone else is playing, only the loudest sound near you, and it all generally turns to slop. And worse yet, loudness seems to be 'sticky upwards' like prices, LOL.
I really like PC's idea about plexiglass. Problem is there would be a serious learning curve for me. I would have no idea how to do it right.
The key to Plexiglas is really trusting in your monitoring system because you won't be hearing the sound as you're used to. But it doesn't disappear by any means.
One night, using the DRRI with the Plexiglas, the battery on my IEM went, so for a couple songs before the set break I had to go without. I heard drums and percussion... and guitar. The Plexiglas shield sort of spreads the sound around nicely on stage but eliminates the "kill zone" aspect of a cranked amp.
We play a couple places with their own sound systems and the house engineers really appreciate the effort. We played one new place last month with a house sound system and the minute I set up the Plexiglas the engineer said, "Dude, I love you already. You're a sound-man's dream." He treated me well in the monitors all night.
This thread is one BIG reason why I don'y play with another guitar player.
Bass players can turn down and a Good drummer can control his volume. Microphones are your friend. Anything to loud needs to be mic'd. Thats is what I call dynamics. It takes work and discipline to get the volume of a good rock band at a comfy level for you and your audience.
Diming a amp because it's your sound is irresponsibe IMO. Maybe at a outdoor gig or a huge venue where your standing 15 -20 or more feet away from your amp I quess. My brother plays loud like some of you guys and everyone complains at his gigs and he has the same answers as many in this thread.
Deluxe Reverb on 3 and a half or so is all you need IMO.
You Dinosaurs just don't know what your doingYMMV
Discuss:
You can always tell the real players in the house. They are always just the right volume.
CT.
pc, would you mind telling us a little more about the plexiglass solution, maybe with a few photos? This sounds like the way to go. Like gris, I love the sound and feel of a 40 watt amp in the danger zone, but I also don't like huge stage volumes. A SR at an outdoor gig is great but can be a real problem to mix in a smaller indoor venue.
Do tell. I am all ears (although a little deaf from playing too loud for years).
"The beauty and profundity of God is more real than any mere calculation."
Can you share any more specifics of this technique please? Is it a specific type/thickness of plexiglass?
Thanks!
Fuzz is proof God love us and wants us to be happy. - Franklin
http://www.frankdenigris.com
I'll post a pic when I get home from work later today.
Basically it's just standard Plexiglas (i.e., the brand with that spelling) that I bought at Lowe's hardware. I would estimate that it's about 1/4th inch thick. They'll cut it to whatever size you want, so I bought four pieces that were each about 3' long and 2' high. I basically measured out more or less the exact size of a DRRI.
The fourth piece I then had cut exactly in half. I bought four hinges that take smaller size bolts and 8 flat-head bolts w/nuts. I bolted on one smaller piece to one larger piece on with the hinges so when extended they look like large Ls. (When drilling the holes for the bolts--make sure to drill a very small guide hole first, then use a bigger drill bit for the correct size of the bolt--that prevents the Plexiglas from cracking).
One L goes behind the DRRI (i.e., long side against the back, short side along left side of the DRRI). One L goes in front with enough room for the mic, with its short side obviously on the right. The final long piece with no hinges can be set right on top to make a box.
I used the hinges because then the lower bout of the L can collapse onto the longer piece and I can stack all three pieces for easy carrying, and so I can adjust the angles if need be.
Now that I'm switching to using amp heads with a single, closed-back 2x12 cabinet, I've reconfigured one of the L's by putting a second "flap" on the opposite side. Thus the Plexiglas will be along the front of the cabinet with the "wings" angling toward the back.
...[AMP]
\_______/
By the way, the second method (with the diagram) is really all you need to achieve the desired goal.
I only did the box thing with the DRRI because in our stage set up we have a percussionist who sets up right behind me, and the sound from the back of the DRRI was washing back to him.
I have found that if both guitarist use tilt back legs or stands it helps a great deal toward a better balance.
yeah, need pics. i too use heads and a single cab - two diff baffles (1x12 or 2x10)
i presume the benefit of plexi is not the acoustical properties but the ability to see your settings...?
But wouldnt you get weird sounds from sound waves bouncing around the box...?
Seeing it is helpful, sure, but also that it is, in fact, reflective. The idea is not to kill the sound but to deflect it up and out rather than have it shoot straight forward.
Nope--in my scenario with the box, the pieces do not connect--there's about an inch gap from the two pieces around the amp and the top doesn't "seal" over the box. It' just lays on top with some gaps here and there. Secondly, I'm close-miking the speaker, so reflections aren't going to play a role with a cardioid or hyper-cardioid mic.But wouldnt you get weird sounds from sound waves bouncing around the box...?
Again, this: \______/ is the preferred method in this technique because that really gets the sound reflected upward and not so much in any one direction. Even though I used it, I wouldn't recommend the box method unless you have the specific issues I had with someone right behind your open-backed amp and your band using IEMs.
In fact, for people who don't use IEMs, there are probably scenarios when you actually want the sound to come out the back of an open-back combo amp. I remember a picture Wilko posted of his amp more or less right in front of the drummer with a piece of Plexiglas in front but not behind. It may have been just what the drummer wanted to hear it well.
Exactly, my drummer HAS to hear me loud and clear in real time...
I think you'd find what I have--that with a closed-back cab and this:
\_____/
The band will hear everything they need to hear but nobody out front will be in a blast zone AND the sound person can mix the band a lot more easily. Or... put another way, at least you (the guitarist) won't be the thing he's trying to mix to.
The key to mixing a standard bar/club rock/dance band is obviously getting the vocals a top everything. If the vocals have to be set to kill chickens at 400 feet because one instrument is so loud that the other instruments are fully cranked to keep up with it... well, I never want to be the guy causing that problem... but I want to sound like I want to sound.
Tilting the amp back is less compressed than enclosing it. We tried both ways and Gris is right the plexi shields mess with the real time.
I use this sometimes. It can help divert sound to the rest of the band while cutting off the strong "beam" into the house.
By positioning it where ever, it's pretty flexible.
I don't like to play loud. Sometimes I do, though. I can't seem to help it. It just creeps up there.
I wish I could....I live in a dorm at school and people get mad if I get my HRDx above a sorry 2! Only out playing live can I really push it...and that's what I live for. There's nothing quite like playing with other people....and playing loud!
I use a DRRI with an 12" ext closed back cab. I planned on using this method:
[AMP]
\_______/
The cool part is that our band room is an old factory spaced about 20x80' where all the windows were covered with plexi. The last tenant ripped them all down. The windows must be @ 40" x 90 " long, so I should be able to find a few pieces and get a piano hinge!
:)
Fuzz is proof God love us and wants us to be happy. - Franklin
http://www.frankdenigris.com
Most of our shows again use our own sound rig which has IEMs, so real time isn't a factor there. However at the three or so clubs we play at without IEMs, our drummer (and everyone else) has experienced no delay from my Plexiglas shield whatsoever. He can hear me just fine and in "real time."
And again, "less compressed" is moot if you're miking the amp. You're only getting the sound from the speaker.
Cool! If you like the way it works for you, you can even use all the rest of the Plexi to design & sell your own custom baffles.
I don't hear any problem with "real time" either. Sound travels plenty fast at 1100 FPS.
My use of 'real time' is inexact, what I really meant was he says he needs to 'feel' me, which in turn really means I have to up to a certain stage volume level on certain frequencies (our bass player is of the disappearing variety) and he doesn't like me that far up on his floor monitor (likes to hear his own vocal there most). If any of this makes sense. We are far from 'pros' LOL.
Bass note frequently dissappear cause of frequencies ;)
A low "A" note is about 20 feet long.
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