Playing in a Trio--being the only guitarist

[NDRU]

Anyone here playing in a trio? As there is usually way too many guitar players in the world, I have never experienced this until now.

It's totally fine while singing & playing rhythm, but I find myself feeling totally naked when I go to do a solo. I have been used to a rhythm player backing me up, and now I'm playing with just bass & drums.

Not only does it sound a little empty, but the tiniest mistakes are so obvious now. It's rough on my confidence, which hurts the playing even more. I also notice that my solos seem less interesting now that they're pulling more weight.

But I believe I can do it, and want to improve. It's a hole in my playing that I want to fill.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to fill up a solo section with some more tone when you're the only guitar player?

[Doc W]

I have played in bands like that a lot and everything you say is true. It is a bit like playing in your underwear. Everything is pretty obvious. Other than practise, practise, practise, there are some things you can do.

When you go for a solo, make sure the drummer does not go for the largest cymbal, to "fill in." Believe it or not, that will actually make your solo work sound thinner because it will be immersed in cymbal noise and you will have to fight against it.

Don't be afraid of playing more sparsely. If you TRY to fill in every single space, it will just sound cluttered and boring. Try to think through solos rather than just letting your fingers do the walking. If you craft a solo properly, you will take the listener with you, even through pauses and silences, and it will not sound empty. Bad solos sound worse when there is nothing else going on.

The drums and bass have to play a role as well. You are not the only person who has to make the solo effective. My philosophy is not to try to fill every single second, but to play interesting and effective melodies (using themes that can be repeated and developed) and to count on the rhythm section complementing that. It is hard to explain but if you work as band, rather than as a soloist with incidental musicians backing you up, it will work a lot better for you.

Finally, make sure you rhythm playing is not just a barrage of sound but is also more nuanced. If you just thunder away at rhythm, then your solos will sound empty by comparison. Playing in a trio is not just about solos but the overall groove and the balance between rhythm fills and solo.

Those are just some quick thoughts. I am sure you will get lots more from others.

[Offshore Angler]

A trio lives or dies by it's bass player.

[Wilko]

Doc has spelled it out pretty clearly.

All that space is your friend. Don't fear it -- Use it.

[NDRU]

Something Doc pointed out that I have noticed is the necessity to maybe scale back on the rhythm playing.

Adding some space to that might make the single note stuff sound less empty by comparison.

I guess I need to watch some of the masters, too, Jimi, Eric, Pete, Robben, even Kurt & the RHCP guys. They made it work, I could watch & see how they did it, especially live.

[phantomman]

Doc has spelled it out pretty clearly.

All that space is your friend. Don't fear it -- Use it.

+1!

Doc an' OSA both.

A lotta the so-called "power trios" of the day would rely on some interesting synchopated percussion and melodic bass counterpoint while Jimi, Eric, Pete, Jimmy, et al began a solo. It was very effective though occasionally understated. Time spent in rehearsal preparing these passages is well worth it IMO.

[NDRU]

Something that is also trouble for me is the stomping of pedals for a solo. While it works well with a second guitar player, I feel like it creates too much of a difference in sound to work as well when I'm alone.

Also, it's just physically tricky to switch from singing a verse & playing rhythm to stepping on a pedal & soloing without missing a beat.

I feel like minimizing the use of pedals might be a good thing, whether that means leaving them on for the song or leaving them off.

[Mesotech]

Precisely right on the pedal point. In a band with another guitar player, when a solo comes around, you tend to need the boost in volume or change in tone to help stand out. In a trio, you won't need these things, and often they can just be plain distracting (both to the player and the listener).

Another good point to add about crafting of solos, try being aware of where a doublestop or drone note could be placed to help fill some empty space. Using these techniques effectively adds color and makes a solo more interesting. Other techniques such as rakes and ghost notes (muted notes between actual notes) can help by giving the impression of a rhythm part being played. SRV used thiese techniques effectively as he literally sawed away on the strings muting most and allowing only the deleberate note ring out.

An aggressive bass player can fill a huge void if they work with you. They can play some chords instead of single notes, walk a bass line, or add other interesting parts to help take up some rhythm slack.

Typically speaking, an aggressive drummer can be counter productive, although there are exceptions where it can work.

[68Bassman]

All of the above, plus maybe throw in some double stops in an appropriate manner.

Brad

[dzguitar10]

After spending the first 10 years of playing in bands with another guitarist... the last 20+ I've been the only guitarist in the bands I have played with as well as my current one. I must say that in 99% of all the shows I prefer this arrangement because it allows the rhythm section to shine... not just the bassist! Or myself! I find it very important in a trio to have a bassist and drummer who work together "like peas and carrots" as Forrest Gump would say. My last gig we had several musicians come up and complement us for sounding so full. Most if not all of that complement should have been directed at the rhythm section... what I do is merely icing on the cake! As far as everything else I agree with the previous posts. It just takes time to get used to it... and once you do you will all become a much tighter band!

[CocoTone]

Trio work seperates the men from the boys. Look at it as a challenge, and you will grow from it. You now have a chance to use your voice as a second instrument. Helps if the drummer and bassist can sing too.

CT.

[dzguitar10]

Adding to my previous post. In the last trio I played with I took on a drummer and bassist who for the most part were overlooked by many if not all of the local area bands because they felt that their chops weren't up to the level of themselves. However what they lacked in experience they more than made up in desire and a willingness to listen to someone like myself with many more years of stage and studio experience.

At first we sounded like three individuals playing literally. However I started bringing my porta-studio with me to rehearsals twice a week and we began recording about an hours or so of rehearsal each time. And when we finished rehearsal or actually we took the last half hour or so of each rehearsal to listen and critque ourselves. I pointed out to them how playing together, particularly bass and drums, without over playing actually made you sound more full as a band. They began to listen and started to play more within themselves and as a unit.

After about six weeks of recording and listening after each rehearsal I decided to take our "live" demos and book this trio. Immediately we had gigs. At our first live club gig I invited several fellow musicians who thought I'd lost my mind by taking these guys on. Well after the first set most if not all of them came up to me and made statements like "we didn't know they were that good" and "WOW! they really have improved as musicains!" and on and on.

The simple fact was that they were always very good musicians! It's just that nobody had taken the time to point out where they were overplaying and in effect "mucking" the sound up.

My point with a trio is you have to work hard at not overplaying and keeping the sound tight. And learning that negative space in the arangments are your friend! Also making mistakes are a part of the process and learning not to show it while playing a gig. Smile and act like you meant to do it! 99% of the audience doesn't know how to play an instrument and think what your doing is amazing anyhow. That's why playing like Yngwie Malmsteen only impresses mostly musicians and why playing like BB King will impress the masses!

To agree with CocoTone, "look at it as a challange, and you will grow from it"

DZguitar

[Offshore Angler]

The other thing with a trio is you get a great natural separation of the instruments in the mix. That's a good thing. It just sounds different and you'll need to get use to it.

I would humbly suggest you practice each song from beginning to end by yourself, and then when you play with the trio it will sound fuller to you.

[curtisstetka]

Lots of great comments here. dzguitar10 - that is an inspirational story!

I'd only add that as a listener, I'd much rather hear a solo that was musically interesting and catchy, rather than blathering notes all over the place trying to "fill up space".

The BB King comment is spot on - the guy is a genius for his economy of playing. (going to see BB in a few weeks!)

I've played in a group doing all original music where I was the only guitarist. One thing to remind yourself - you don't have to take a solo! Maybe it doesn't really serve the song at all. Or maybe you can just play something other than the typically guitar hero single note solo thing.

[dzguitar10]

Hey... thanks for the kind comments curtisstetka! One thing I didn't mention in my story above is that these fellow buddies and bandmates were not trained musicians. They had no theory training or bass guitar and drum lessons whatsoever... completely self-taught. However when I shared music terminology like "dynamics" and stuff they were eager to gain this knowledge.

Many musicians I've played in groups with either didn't care or thought they were already too good for someone else to explain something to them such as the difference between a Major and Major Pentatonic scale. Most couldn't read any music yet they thought they were the next big rock star! I'm not saying natural ability can't take you a very long way... but getting some knowledge will always make you a better rounded musician. These guys I talked about in my trio yearned to learn more about not only their instrument but about music theory too.

I actually keep in touch with both of them now and they both play in pretty successful local groups and one of them even plays in his church's praise band!

Your comments about hearing a catchy or interesting solo rather than blathering notes all over the place are on the mark! I too prefer to hear a guitarist that knows how to evoke emotion in my soul with his playing ala Billy Gibbons, Mick Ralphs, Jimi Hendrix and Robin Trower to name just a few here... I could most certainly call off a hundred more across many genres too.

This is a very thought provoking thread!

[NeoFauve]

I've played in a group doing all original music where I was the only guitarist. One thing to remind yourself - you don't have to take a solo! Maybe it doesn't really serve the song at all. Or maybe you can just play something other than the typically guitar hero single note solo thing.

Yeah, depending on the kind of music your band does, but especially if you do originals, you can define what happens. It doesn't have to be about wailing over the changes.
A short melody-based guitar break between verses can really be memorable. It can just be a slightly ornamented version of what you play under the verses. Maybe harmony vocals carry on under a solo.

[curtisstetka]

I was fortunate enough to play with a really gifted bassist. That guy didn't need me getting in his way at all. When I played rhythm, it was usually just a chord here and there for color and syncopation. He had it all under control.

[melody]

Adding to my previous post. In the last trio I played with I took on a drummer and bassist who for the most part were overlooked by many if not all of the local area bands because they felt that their chops weren't up to the level of themselves. However what they lacked in experience they more than made up in desire and a willingness to listen to someone like myself with many more years of stage and studio experience.

At first we sounded like three individuals playing literally. However I started bringing my porta-studio with me to rehearsals twice a week and we began recording about an hours or so of rehearsal each time. And when we finished rehearsal or actually we took the last half hour or so of each rehearsal to listen and critque ourselves. I pointed out to them how playing together, particularly bass and drums, without over playing actually made you sound more full as a band. They began to listen and started to play more within themselves and as a unit.

After about six weeks of recording and listening after each rehearsal I decided to take our "live" demos and book this trio. Immediately we had gigs. At our first live club gig I invited several fellow musicians who thought I'd lost my mind by taking these guys on. Well after the first set most if not all of them came up to me and made statements like "we didn't know they were that good" and "WOW! they really have improved as musicains!" and on and on.

The simple fact was that they were always very good musicians! It's just that nobody had taken the time to point out where they were overplaying and in effect "mucking" the sound up.

My point with a trio is you have to work hard at not overplaying and keeping the sound tight. And learning that negative space in the arangments are your friend! Also making mistakes are a part of the process and learning not to show it while playing a gig. Smile and act like you meant to do it! 99% of the audience doesn't know how to play an instrument and think what your doing is amazing anyhow. That's why playing like Yngwie Malmsteen only impresses mostly musicians and why playing like BB King will impress the masses!

To agree with CocoTone, "look at it as a challange, and you will grow from it"

DZguitar

Great post!

Lots of great comments here. dzguitar10 - that is an inspirational story!

I'd only add that as a listener, I'd much rather hear a solo that was musically interesting and catchy, rather than blathering notes all over the place trying to "fill up space".

The BB King comment is spot on - the guy is a genius for his economy of playing. (going to see BB in a few weeks!)

I've played in a group doing all original music where I was the only guitarist. One thing to remind yourself - you don't have to take a solo! Maybe it doesn't really serve the song at all. Or maybe you can just play something other than the typically guitar hero single note solo thing.

yup playing a solo can be a soul lifting experience or a empty flurry of WTF?

[NDRU]

Thanks for all the comments. I'm excited to take advantage of this moment because we may end up with a 2nd guitar soon.

One no-brainer suggestion above, but something I have definitely embraced, is to practice the songs by myself. Having some idea of how the solo will go before I do it with the band.

Some good ideas, thanks!

[curtisstetka]

Always leave 'em wanting more.

[FrankJohnson]

A trio lives or dies by it's bass player.

Thanks.......


Yep it helps for your wingman to be there for you!



BTW - nice rich guitar sound/tone is important. I don't care how you get it, but it CANNOT be thin and weak, or brittle.


I dont' really know how to post a clip, but I have a really good exampe of Lin (from my 3 pc band) through a princeton Barbar direct drive, DD3 and Tubescreamer, using a 345.....it is actually at a very low volume, recorded in a shooting range, during a christmas party.

Actually......(brain fart in progress)
it is Rock Me and also....Wait on time on www.myspace.com/badjujublues
the rest are 4 pc....

[Gris]

Good advice here. I did it for a little while (and actually preferred it to the hoard we have now) and I have three amigos now doing it that are sick good. I think a great bass player can support a solo BETTER than a riddum guitar. I know - I SEE it with these guys all the time. As someone said, there is more 'separation,' less invasion of each other's sonic space. I can't offer any advice other than what has been said. Maybe I am I weird/different - when I solo/improvise I get my inspiration from our drummer and vice versa. These thrio cats I know here are same way. Lead guitar gets his inspiration from bass player - cool to watch as it happens.

[NDRU]

BTW - nice rich guitar sound/tone is important. I don't care how you get it, but it CANNOT be thin and weak, or brittle.

I've been playing with my strat, and while I know that I can get great tone with it, I think maybe I'd benefit from the beefier tone of my HB guitar in this situation.

[Totally bored]

Power Trio is where I live. Been doing it in the same band for 20 years. Couldn't see doing Hendrix, Page, Beck, Trower or SRV with another Guitar player in the Band. I Don't enjoy playing with other guitar players cause it gets to loud and actually restricts my style of playing. One guitarist can do it all.

Here's a sloppy little Jam from a few weeks ago,

Manic Depression

http://home.roadrunner.com/~theoutpa...%201-05-09.mp3

The Wanton Song

http://home.roadrunner.com/~theoutpa...ong%20clip.mp3

[KyKaH]

Playing in trio is fun. Since you've got only a bass line behind and it's at least an octave away virtually you can play whatever you want for solo and always get a nice sounding large intervals like 9b:)) But seriously, you can give different tastes to it by using scales that are not supposed to be there which will give you a new chords interpretation along with a original bassline. Look at it like you can do no mistake :) Listen to some Larry Coryell, McLaughling or Scofield trio works. Have Fun!

[SkylerJames]

It does make it easier to go between Majr and Minor pent. licks

[NDRU]

What I'm finding is that it's the same kind of rude awakening that many people experience singing karaoke or playing in a band for the first time. All of my weaknesses are being exposed that I had not really noticed before.

It's rough at times, but you learn quickly what works. No more playing stuff I'm unsure of because that will surely leave some huge flub out there for all to hear. One huge benefit to my playing is that this likely means I will be playing far fewer notes. Play what you know.

I only worry that my band is hearing what I am and getting antsy to get another guitar player before I adjust.

[refin]

I've played in three G-B-D trios,two by design,one because the other guitarist moved.
I like trios-------what I don't care for is when they feature the guitar more than the songs,which is often the case.To me,it's like painting a picture with just three basic colors....but you can get subtle undertones by mixing the colors.I love the sparsness of the sound.
Something like this--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL3mvkZ6mVk

Of course,there are times where 3 sound like 5---the Who Live At Leeds,Eric Johnson,ect.

[NDRU]

I've played in three G-B-D trios,two by design,one because the other guitarist moved.
I like trios-------what I don't care for is when they feature the guitar more than the songs,which is often the case.To me,it's like painting a picture with just three basic colors....but you can get subtle undertones by mixing the colors.I love the sparsness of the sound.
Something like this--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL3mvkZ6mVk

Of course,there are times where 3 sound like 5---the Who Live At Leeds,Eric Johnson,ect.

this is something I'm feeling about myself. I don't know if it sounds this way to others, but I feel like I'm just playing too many solos. featuring the instruments is fine, but just playing some blues riffs constantly gets old to me and probably does to others as well.

[Kap'n]

this is something I'm feeling about myself. I don't know if it sounds this way to others, but I feel like I'm just playing too many solos. featuring the instruments is fine, but just playing some blues riffs constantly gets old to me and probably does to others as well.

I've played in lots of trios, but never because I wanted to.

When I do, we play three minute songs with solos a verse long, with rare exeception, and that's only if it's a worked out solo.

I'd much rather have another chordal/solo instrument to work off of. As you said, if I'm getting bored, just imagine how the audience feels.

One thing I find mixes things up quite a bit, and will make you stand out from a lot of other bands in similar situations, is get a handful of songs where the bass plays a melodic solo underneath your chords, rather than just blazing guitar.

[NDRU]

One thing I find mixes things up quite a bit, and will make you stand out from a lot of other bands in similar situations, is get a handful of songs where the bass plays a melodic solo underneath your chords, rather than just blazing guitar.

We just did this last night and it worked really well. It was an instrumental where I was playing melody, so during the solo I played chords instead of single note stuff.

I'm going to suggest more of that--for the songs that it would suit.

[Wilko]

One thing I find mixes things up quite a bit, and will make you stand out from a lot of other bands in similar situations, is get a handful of songs where the bass plays a melodic solo underneath your chords, rather than just blazing guitar.

This is one of my favourite songs to play and does just that witht he bass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1N0GXnh4dI

[Kap'n]

I love Nick Lowe. I gots to get me some more. New box set to be released on Yep Rock.

[dzguitar10]

Another thing my band relies on heavily is having all three members sing both lead and harmony. Good, tight three part harmonies where they can be worked in will make your band sound tons phatter than just a lonely guitarist, bassist and drummer with one of those three singing lead alone! Also getting the beginnings and endings of solos nailed down will also make you sound much better. I used to play in a quartet where I had a second guitarist to cover for each other coming in and out of solos so it made you sound much tighter until you listen to yourself in the studio monitors and realize just how much the other guy covers your ass! Playing in a trio has made me a waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy better guitarist!

[frank thomson]

A trio lives or dies by it's bass player.

WORD

[NDRU]

I'm enjoying the challenge, but just played a show Saturday with a second guitar player, and god, was that a load off of my shoulders!

onstage is not necessarily the place to be challenged, anyway

[Offshore Angler]

(post ended up in the wrong thread!)

[NDRU]

Was just watching the Red Hot Chili Peppers, (although technically not a trio, they only have one guitar player.

As mentioned before, simplifying the rhythm parts seems to be something that John Fruciante has taken to heart. He so often plays two notes of a chord during a verse.

It's interesting that the music can still sound fairly full even though he's not chunking out full chords. This technique is not only helpful from a performance standpoint, though, but making a song more individual from an arrangement point of view by creating something of a riff out of chords.

It's something Robben Ford also mentioned, playing harmonies a 6th apart instead of full chords.

[Gris]

Sort of off point but there's a rather long two part Youtube vid of Frusciante playing along and explaining how he wrote a tune ('Dani California?') that I found fascinating. It shows how basic, but in a good way, his playing and song crafting is, like you said just playing little riifs (cause he knows there's a jamming bass behind him). The other thing that struck me is that cat's got tone in his fingers. In the vid he's playing this old '50s Strat (real) straight in and you can really hear how he attacks his instrument - big tone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE3dUUj4_4Q

oh yeah - be forewarned the dude's CRAZY in a decidely Nigel Tuffnels way, LOL

[Kap'n]

John Frusciante amazes me with the parts he comes up with. Or he did, anyway, on Mother's Milk and BSSM. Californication was a pretty good record, but the best parts seemed to be rehashing of earlier stuff.

I gave up after Anthony wrote yet another song naming off random locations.