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Thread: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

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    Forum Member Gris's Avatar
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    The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    Bought a mystery chassis really cheap a while back. Was missing a PT. Finally got around to wiring in an old grey Triad PT a few days ago. Never could figure what this amp was 'cause it has no identifiable markings. Had two channels/four inputs like a tweed Deluxe with two tones and two volumes. Once channel marked normal, one bright. Huge four bolt OT, but not much room for a big PT. Had been filter capped 40-40-40. Cool easily moveable internal spade clip for 4/8/16 ohm secondary/speaker out. Strangely shaped chromed chassis, like maybe a front top control layout diving down the back of a combo. Unrecognizable circuit with big old 0.25 blue molded Mallory coupling caps indicative of a bass amp? What look to clearly be original pots have date codes late 1970...

    So... a few weeks ago a buddy tells he thinks he knows what it is cause he saw one on Ebay - a St. George 'Lancer' 1x12 2x6V6 bass amp combo from mid sixties. I said "huh? a 2x6V6 BASS amp?" Started researching and found next to nothing about this - just a few references to Ray Massie a buddy of Leo Fender's who (probably erroneously) is credited with perfecting the push-pull amp circuit and worked with Leo in his radio shop and maybe in the amp biz til CBS buy out.

    Back to the amp, I fire it up after wiring in the PT (for any recto) and it's a killer sounding amp, albeit a tad dark. So, I remove the 0.25 big blues and solder in two 0.1 mf Mustards. Sounds d*mn good. I mean D*MN good. Sort of a cross between Maggie 213, 5E3 and 18 watt Marshall. I pop in two perfect old NOS black plate RCA 6L6GB a friend gave me and swap the 5Y3 copper cap for a RCA 5U4 he also gave me - BAM, instant mojo! You pretty much need to dime the tone control and it's got a very pretty Maggie type midrangy voice.

    Meanwhile, I'm looking hither and yonder for info on this little monster - nothing but a few "if you ever see you grab it!" comments on boards. Then, I'm bumpin around on the 'bargain bin' section of Schem Heaven and lo and behold there it is under 'Ray Massie,' except it's called the Massie Electronics of Los Angeles 'Model 363 El Basso!' The schem is an actual photo of a chart inside a cabinet and matches what I've got minus one or two obvious replacement parts. Down at the bottom is says "this is what what inside my St. George Lancer." Suddenly it is all clear. I have a St. George Lancer Model 363 El Basso 2x6V6 bass amp, LOL!

    Well, I've just started tinkering with this thing. It's got a few little roaches motoring around inside and MIGHT need just a tiny bit more high end harmonics, but lemme tell ya this amp sounds really, really good. And, it's so cool to be able to swap power tubes and rectos. Also neat how easy it is swap speaker impedance. With the 6L6GB (haven't tried 6L6GC yet) and 5U4 it KILLS with headroom up to maybe 25 watts and then a nice growl after that. It's really right in that bar room band sweet spot. And it seems to work best with just a delay pedal to simulate reverb and a gritty boost, nothing else needed. It has enough built-in compression that it sustains for days clean or dirty. Oh yeah, best part is the way cool retro AQUA jewel, LOL!

    Pics to follow. Haven't built a cab yet. Gonna put it in a custom dark lacquer tweed head box.

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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    I'll be watching this. I had an old Bassman style tube amp nooone had ever heard of. It was either italian or Japanese I guess, and well built. Looked like a blackface bassman, but I could find NOTHING on it on gooogle or ebay or anywhere.

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    Forum Member Gris's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    [IMG][/IMG]
    [IMG][/IMG]

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    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    i have a "squier", sort of like a tremolux, 4 12ax7's, 2 6v6's, and an EZ81. sounds sort of like an ac15 mixed with a brown fender. i know exactly what you're talking about with the compression. this thing has it in spades. probably 12-15 watts.



    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

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    Forum Member rudutch's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    it looks 'industrial strength'
    do I look like I know what I'm doing?

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    Forum Member Gris's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    OMG another St. George - cool! Yeah, the schem for mine shows a 6CA4 recto (EZ81). That would an uber low voltage 9 pin. I'm certain mine has a somewhat non-original sound in some ways - much louder and less 'brown' with either a 5Y3 or 5U4. That's one of the two obvious 'mods' to mine: new octal hole for recto and replaced filter caps. Man I'm jealous, you've even got a logo... :-( What year is yours?

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    Forum Member Kap'n's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    It's funny looking at that Massie/St. Geo. schematic. It's laid out exactly like early (Pre-"C" revision) Fender schematics.

    Yes I know Massie worked for Fender in the early days, but I didn't know how involved he was. This sort of clinches it.

    Volume controls are kind of backwards - like a 5E3 deluxe, but it still has summing node resistors. Weird.

    That PI is weird too. Or maybe because it's sort of half drawn. All the squash is from the 10K resistor between B+1 and B+2.
    Several guitars in different colors
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    Forum Member NTBluesGuitar's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    Does this new goodness make up for the idiot who ruined that killer amp you sold?
    "...pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field;
    that, of course, they are many in number; or that, after all, they are other than the little,
    shriveled, meagre, hopping, though loud and troublesome, insects of the hour."

    -Edmund Burke

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    Forum Member Fripperton's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    I just sold a non-working Challenger II. Looks a lot like Chuck's Squier but has a real weird set of 5OC5 power tubes with the 12ax7s in the preamp section.



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    If aliens listened to our current top 40, they'd think that the entire planet was populated by sexually ambivalent robots with ethnic insecurity.



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    Forum Member Gris's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    Good GAWD they're everywhere!

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    Forum Member Gris's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    Hmmmm, even after the coupling cap value reduction it's still a tad big in the bottom...

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    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    i think it's a mid sixties? my amp tech freaked out when i brought it in. bought it for 150 bucks cash out the door. i talked the guy down from 250.
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

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    Forum Member Gris's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    FWIW, bought mine for $25, sans PT and cab, hehe.

    Think I may have figured something else out. The OT looks exactly like one I saw on a Fender 'Bantam Bass' that came in the shop couple of years ago. Those were made '69-'71 and ran 2x6L6 for 30 watts w/ a 5U4, about what mine puts out. My pots are dated '70. Gotta be the same OT (no numbers on top - maybe underneath).

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    Forum Member Gris's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    Oohhh, I am digging this thing big time. Even w/o any time to further tweak/mod - it slayed a couple of other 40+ watt amps in a speaker shootout this a.m. ... :-)

    Me thinks it may not need much tweaking after I re-do the power supply section. Those 3x40mf @450V Spragues are not my doing - and the two in series are in the second section with another 20mf from the can and an 8mf last - the lil blackie, leaving only 40 @ 450 in the first stage. I wanna put two 80mf @ 450V in series for the first stage and try a GZ34. I think that'll tighten it up a tad and gimme maybe 5+ more watts.

    I also think this thing needs the high end harmonics of a killer 12 inch speaker to shine. Alls I got on hand right now are tons of tens... :-(

    ps - Chucko, try some Turtlewax 'Chrome Polish & Rust Remover' - did a great job on my chassis face w/o taking off the lettering... ;-)

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    Forum Member Gris's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    OOooooooo-K, I have decided that it does need jus a tad mo highs/less lows. Gain structure seems to be OK. Anyone care to offer opinions on what direction I should attack it from? Kap'n, NTB, anyone?

    ps - got a laugh last night. another picker dropped by. had this amp chasiss up on top of my cab. sad "lemme show you this thing" . had 'found' an old Yamaha Magicstomp earlier and hooked it up - had it hidden between cab and wall. put the amp on 3 (maybe 10 watts) said "lemme demonstrate the beautiful clean tone" did so. had the channels jumpered, said "now watch what happens when i mess with the interactive volume controls..." at that i point i sneakily hit the magicstomp (set to Eddie Van Halen territory) as i drew his asttention to the chassis and turned the knobs back and forth in a fake out move. LOL! should have seen his face melt!!!! said "can you do that to my amp!"

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    Forum Member chuckocaster's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    thanks for the tip mark. LOL with the fake out move with your buddy, sounds like something i would do!

    my amp normally gets played thru either a 4x10 marshall bottom, or a 2x12 avatar marshall clone with greenbacks in it. it sounds great thru either. the amp is a little on the bright side, but in a good way. if i run it with the 18 watt marshall i have then the marshall goes into the 2x12, and the st. george into the 4x10, with the george set to bright and the marshall set to smooth. compressed, syrupy, lick it up goodness!

    p.s. i still need to take that pic for you, just need to do it.

    take care buddy.
    "don't worry, i'm a professional!"

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    Forum Member Kap'n's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    Quote Originally Posted by Gris View Post
    Anyone care to offer opinions on what direction I should attack it from? Kap'n, NTB, anyone?
    Best bet is to reduce values of bypass/coupling caps, or use brighter speakers.
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    Forum Member Gris's Avatar
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    Re: The Mysterious St. George The Lancer/Massie El Basso 363

    Quote Originally Posted by Kap'n View Post
    Best bet is to reduce values of bypass/coupling caps, or use brighter speakers.
    Pretty much what I was thinking. Already did the coupling caps - don't really wann go lower there if I can help it. Looking to go from 2x10 to a brighter, more harmonic 12. Probably need to look at bypass caps.

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