The US Economy

[phantomman]

What is wrong with this picture?

One component of this alleged "crisis du jour" is lenders supposedly bein' averse to extending credit. So las' week I git my new platinum-plus card from my bank (B of A)......they raised my credit limit by FORTY-FOUR HUNNERT BUCKS! I mean, I could literally drive a new loaded Accord offa the lot on my friggin' Visa card.

Whatever's truly at play here, you can bet yer collective asses that we ain' gittin' the whole story.

[gibsonjunkie]

The guy who just moved in next door was having trouble getting a mortgage because he had no money for a down payment. The bank figured out how to solve his problem, though. They gave him a home equity loan for the down payment and then he got the mortgage...

[phantomman]

How f*cking STOOPID izzat?!?!?

If'n home values continue to tank (an' they likely will) an' the shmuck loses his job, he'll be buried in a house that he cain't even give away!

Good Gawd! An' these are the same cupcakes who wanna "fix" this mess with OUR MONEY???

[tooncat]

wooo baby Didn't pass....

[mgade]

Internationalization is good. Enter the "comparative advantage". No jobs gone that shouldn't go. A reason for the great depression in the thirties was customs walls and isolationism. This is accepted by almost every economist in the world - and every nation in the world as well. PEOPLE seems less convinced as it can hit YOU and that's allways worse than when it hits 100 neighbours.

If CEO's gets extreme wages, they do for a reason. Sarkozy threatened French corporations, that if they do not prevent extreme wages to failed CEOs, he will. That sounds sensible? Yet it really doesn't matter much. But go for it Sarkozy, your voters will love it.

Gas and food prices? Gimme a break. I'm still upgunning the automotive engines here and if some Joe Sixpack somewhere can't follow? Too bad. What am I saying? I am saying, that I will buy the car I legally can and watch the ice on Greenland melt and Joe Six-pack stand in line for the bus or fix the wheel on his bicycle. The codework is "legally buy" and thus legislation. Lots of it. Many many pages of it. Conferences and speaches and dinners and Mercedes in flashlight and YOU just might benefit. You will love it! (When the prices come down - but you will hate the 25 HP 100 miles/galllon (?) "car" and bureaucratic regulations). Yeah I know. It won't happen. So, *I* am upgunning my car and *I* can afford the gas (diesel).

And the sub-prime loans? Think elicross nailed that one. Deregulation is good when the markets are overregulated. Deregulation is not ALWAYS good. The hard part is when enough is enough. Look for happy voters with a "free lunch" feeling and you are close I think.

Oddly - if everybody saves up money and gets rid of debt - everybody becomes poor. Keynes in reverse. OSA is right (not that it can replace the aid to the banks) and that is not socialism. It's macro economics. It wouldn't be right here though - this country is running full bore with no unemployment. Here and now it would cause inflation and nothing else.

Lesson 2 tomorrow

[elicross]

Too bad most of the folks who engineered this mess, already bailed out, and left somebody else holding the bag. And I believe it's too late to take back their parachutes.

Well, the point is not to take away the tons of money executives made from the lack of regulation; that ship has sailed. The point is to prevent executives from making tons of money from a cure paid for by taxpayers.

That's the big concern everyone has had since the first draft of the bailout plan was announced: that the people at the top of the firms being bailed out would still get millions and millions of dollars, even if they were fired for running their companies into the ground. The bipartisan negotiators working on the bailout plan included language aimed at keeping that from happening. If it had passed (and it didn't -- it just failed in the House), the objection that a bailout would make a bunch of irresponsible Wall Street executives filthy rich would've been moot.

Hopefully any bailout plan that replaces the one that just failed (and I think some kind of bailout is inevitable) will include language like that. I think it's only fair to restrict the compensation of these companies' executives. It's not about limiting the money made by the people trying to save these companies from bankruptcy -- it's about accountability for the people who allowed these companies to get to the brink of bankruptcy. They may not have broken any laws, but their actions -- or those of their employees -- were unethical and irresponsible, and they should feel the same kind of financial pinch any small business owner would feel if he let his greed overrule his fiscal sense and nearly destroy his company.

And, let's face it, a limit of half a million bucks isn't exactly draconian. Anybody should be able to live on that.

[gibsonjunkie]

News of the hour - Congress hasn't passed the bill and Wall street is tanking - GREAT!

[Gris]

The stock market is nose-diving, down 400 points in 10 minutes, then another 300...

This what Bush feared, investors would get slammed w/o a bailout. But, he guaranteed it when he announced the dire need for a plan (the market is all about expectations, not necessarily reality). Probably not very wise to introduce a bill before clearing it with either party...

The bill didn't pass, not because it's not needed, but because all the congressmen didn't want to commit to do anything that drastic with an election coming up. We have come to the point where everything that happens in Washington is driven by political campaign concerns. Bush made many frantic phone calls to try and save it but... if you live by the sword you die by the sword (he has too many political enemies)

Now we can sit back and see if it was really needed.

The upshot of it all is probably that the democratic candidate will be elected if the market does not recover...

[phantomman]

I'll likely take a hit too but those Gordon Gekko cheeze-dicks need to feel what it's like down here in the trenches as well.

I'm sure there'll be a whole lotta vintage wine collections listed on e-vill bay this week......

FUGG'EM!!!

[Vics]

I had Fox News on and was watching the Dow sink right before my eyes. I had to shut it off. Man.....I don't EVEN want to think about looking at my next 401K and other investment statment's.

You know, I've worked like a damn dog these past 20 years, have done without a lot of things and pride myself on living a very simple, low key modest lifestyle staying well within my means. Burns me to no end thinking how this mess could have been stopped and how those in "power" just let it go due to greed and arrogance.

[gibsonjunkie]

When I was 43 my valiant effort to save my family's business failed and I lost almost everything I had, including my kids college fund and all my retirement money. It took me 16 years, but I was finally seeing a light at the end of the tunnel, and with some prudent management, would be able to retire sometime this side of 70.



That light was the train barreling towards me at high speed...

[Gris]

778 points down, a new record... :-(

[rudutch]

I can't retire for 20 years (maybe more now) so I am not overly concerned about today. This entire thing is interesting, hurry up or things will go south. Seems 8 hours is all it needed. So how can everything get devalued in 8 hours?... I did not take too many economy classes in college but it seems that this is.. um.. a bit over the top. Wonder what will happen later this week?

[Gris]

See post #48 above, second paragraph.

[cooltone]

Whatever's truly at play here, you can bet yer collective asses that we ain' gittin' the whole story

well said, phantom.
Speculation, manipulation, fear mongering, etc... it truly is hard to know who to believe anymore.

[Gris]

Uhhhh, hello - the President of the US bought big insurance company, banks are failing - Pres goes on TV and says we HAVE to have this bailout or else. People freak out and start selling when we don't get the 'required' bailout. Did you every see the movie 'It's a Wonderful Life?' Remember what Jimmy Stewart told all the people making a run on his bank? The Pres needed to say something like "we are hitting a speed-bump and over the next few weeks I am going to be working with Congress to fix it..." Not "we are in dire straights and must do this one thing right now or else..." (like he did).

[stratcat55]

Fear seems to be Premier Bush's weapon of choice from terrorism to the economy on the American people. This whole mess reeks of shit. It seems to be happening way too fast. Almost like a setup. And no, I'm not a conspiracy nut. I believe Phantomman too. You know we're not getting the whole story. I wonder what else they're trying to sneak past us while everybody's worried about this mess. Pay raise's, new taxes, who knows. Everybody's pointing fingers now especially at Pelosi. Interesting stuff.

[elicross]

Yeah, Republicans are blaming Pelosi, saying if she hadn't made what they call a partisan speech, they would've voted for the bailout.

So they're admitting to voting against something they thought was right for the country...out of spite? Okay. Vote 'em out!

As for the fearmongering, that's a big tactic in politics these days. Both Sarah Palin and John McCain used the phrase "we don't need another Holocaust" last week in reference to Iran.

[rudutch]

See post #48 above, second paragraph.

are you implying these jokers don't act in my best interest? That they would enchich themselves and thier cronies at my expence?

[Wilko]

As for the fearmongering, that's a big tactic in politics these days. Both Sarah Palin and John McCain used the phrase "we don't need another Holocaust" last week in reference to Iran.

When they say that it means that they don't want to see Isreal being annialated by Iran (as Jews were during The Halocaust). It doesn't mean that we are to fear Iran ourselves.

[Kap'n]

Uhhhh, hello - the President of the US bought big insurance company, banks are failing - Pres goes on TV and says we HAVE to have this bailout or else.

Last time Jr. tried to ram something through in a couple of days we started a war and got the "patriot" act.

[curt1lp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFh6P...rs.com/?p=4962

[elicross]

When they say that it means that they don't want to see Isreal being annialated by Iran (as Jews were during The Halocaust). It doesn't mean that we are to fear Iran ourselves.

Yes. Thanks, but I got that.

[Wilko]

Yes. Thanks, but I got that.

It's amazing how many people don't get it. Specially the fear mongering. I can't stand it. It gives power to the the terrorists.

[melody]

Its a shit stain thats getting a good wash but still stinks.. Hang on B&G'S we ai'nt seen nothing yet the worst is yet to come.. I think what we seen today is a correction thats needed to restore confidence in the market. I'm by know means a economy wiz just a guitar player.. JMHO

[Gris]

Last time Jr. tried to ram something through in a couple of days we started a war and got the "patriot" act.

Bingo - fool me once...

[Wilko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qDuG0ZYD5I

[tooncat]

I'd like to thank the mods for letting us engage in a political discussion. I'm down a ton of value today....but it's only a loss if I sell.

And Ms. Blackburn of the 7th district will get a nice email from me as soon as her mail comes back on line

[phantomman]

Hang in there, Toon Cat......we survived "Black October" back in '87, we'll survive the current cluster-f*ck.

This too shall pass!

[curt1lp]

When they say that it means that they don't want to see Isreal being annialated by Iran (as Jews were during The Halocaust). It doesn't mean that we are to fear Iran ourselves.

Israel: Hundreds of nukes, and one of the biggest militaries in the world.
Iran: no known nukes.

Who's gonna annihalate who? And who should be terrified?

[clayville]

Israel: Hundreds of nukes, and one of the biggest militaries in the world.
Iran: no known nukes.

Who's gonna annihalate who? And who should be terrified?

Don: I love you like a brother, man. You know that...

But It ain't a good thing for anybody if Iran gets nukes.

[Cogs]

Israel hasn't ever called for the annihilation of Iran, as far as I know.

[curt1lp]

Don: I love you like a brother, man. You know that...

But It ain't a good thing for anybody if Iran gets nukes.

Israel hasn't ever called for the annihilation of Iran, as far as I know.

100% agreed to both those statements. (and Clay thanks) However cool heads are needed...I fear another preemptive war could set off WW3...

[Rickenjangle]

Bbbbut, but, but wouldn't that be a "redistribution of wealth," or "socialism?"

Socialism isn't the bugbear that some make it out to be. The pink elephant in the room is that the trickle-down economy doesn't work because unlike shit, money flows uphill. Spreading the wealth around sounds like a better idea to me than to give the Gordon Gekkos of this world even more money to keep the status quo chugging along.

[Wilko]

Israel hasn't ever called for the annihilation of Iran, as far as I know.

And actually, neither had Iran. The president (not the supreme leader) was misquoted from his prediction that because of Israel's artificial support from the west and it's zionist history, that it would eventually be "erased from the pages of history".

(of course they haven't tried to correct that quote because it made him out to a hero in the arab/persian world)

[elicross]

Socialism isn't the bugbear that some make it out to be. The pink elephant in the room is that the trickle-down economy doesn't work because unlike shit, money flows uphill. Spreading the wealth around sounds like a better idea to me than to give the Gordon Gekkos of this world even more money to keep the status quo chugging along.

But the bailout's not about giving Gordon Gekko a bunch of money to keep things chugging along. It's about keeping a bunch of banks from collapsing, so you don't go to your local ATM one day in the near future and find you can't have any of your money because the bank doesn't have it. Or finding out that -- even though you have perfect credit -- you can't get a loan to buy a car or get your roof fixed. If these huge banks are allowed to fail, it won't just hurt a bunch of rich guys in tailored suits; it'll hurt everybody.

[Fripperton]

I wonder what else they're trying to sneak past us while everybody's worried about this mess.

Well there's this.


BTW the US economy has turned the corner.....rolled over 3 times, crashed into a tree, and burst into flames.

[flintpunk]

Yeah, Republicans are blaming Pelosi, saying if she hadn't made what they call a partisan speech, they would've voted for the bailout.

So they're admitting to voting against something they thought was right for the country...out of spite? Okay. Vote 'em out!

As for the fearmongering, that's a big tactic in politics these days. Both Sarah Palin and John McCain used the phrase "we don't need another Holocaust" last week in reference to Iran.

Ummmm, yeah but...

1/3 of the democrats in congress voted against the bill too. The media is making this all about those bad republicans, but there's politicing on both sides! The dems don't want to be the ones holding the bag if this thing goes sour (which it probably will).

Brace yourselves, we're in for a storm. There's plenty of blame for all going all the way back to Jimmy Carter.

[Kap'n]

There's plenty of blame for all going all the way back to Jimmy Carter.

And in the intervening twenty eight years, twenty of which were Republican admins, and eight of which were Democrats, as well as one major league housing meltdown and at least one or two smaller ones, nobody did anything?

I think you'd have a hard time pinning this one on Jimmy Earl.

[flintpunk]

Yes, but there were only 8 or 10 years of Republican lawmaking during those 28 years. James Earl and the democrats were responsible for this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

I'll admit that republican de-regulation had something to do with this, but all along, the government has been making banks give loans to people who can't afford to pay them back. Owning a house in this country is not a "right". You have to earn the ability to do so. These goofy no downpayment, or interest only, or variable rate mortgages got a lot of people into homes. That's usually a good thing, but when gas prices climbed to what looks to be their now permanant high, people could no longer afford all the crap they financed and the bottom fell out of the lending industry.

Like I said, there's plenty of blame to share.

Here's another interesting video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBT052jHnmE

And the original one I posted that Youtube took down...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU6fuFrdCJY