Does to me! Wait til I put up some pics of the other '63, LOL!Originally Posted by cwilliamrose
Does to me! Wait til I put up some pics of the other '63, LOL!
One thing that's a little strange on mine -- the grill logo has what looks like black instead of brown in the painted area. I cleaned it gently but it still looks black to me. Is the one at your shop brown in that area??
This has to be the only amp forum with two of these to discuss!........Bill
I always wanted one of the reissues. That and the '59 Bassman were the first two of the reissues, IIRC. They've certainly started a trend.
I do wish Fender would reissue the blonde '62 bassman!
Of course, the '65 Tremolux would be a nice one to redo, also!
"I'm gonna find myself a girl
that can show me what laughter means
And we'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint-by-number dreams..."
Temporary thread hijack 'til I get back over to the shop to take pics of the '63 VV. Here's the '57 Silvertone Model 1392 by Danelectro. Two 6V6 in push-pull putting out only about 10 watts, but... to my ears the best dirty circuit distortion I've EVER heard - and I've heard many... :-)
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That's one cool lookin' amp!
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
Sounds even better than it looks Kap'n. Only problem/dilemma is it sounds even more heavenly through my bigger box '61 Discoverer cab (all wood tweed Deluxe sized, but like half inch old pine w/ 1/4 or 3/8 uber thin spruce baffle) & replacement speaker (JBL D123) - but... I can't bear to do away with the '50s auto styling PB cab precisely because it does look so cool. That's why I added the pig-tail & jack... :-)
Speaking of cool amps (nuther thread hijack/digression), I just stumbled into a MINT '60 Magnatone 260-A head, 2x5881 + that killer vibe (a fave of Cray & Cooder, et al.). It's totally clean, came stuffed w/ RCA blackplate tubes and I also got it for next to nothing just like the Silvertone. Maybe my bad luck has finally changed...
Anyway, took it over to some monster players house last night. We plug it into an old blonde BM cab and take turns messing with it, pretty clean right to the very top - excellent sound - no pedals. Then the lap steel God walks in and asks to plug in. Throws down a cheap Dano delay and starts wailing on his lap steel - E9 tuning w/ pinky/ring finger bends galore behind the slide bar. The PU on his OLD National lap is HOT, hot, HOT. The amp comes to life. The combo of creamy OD tone, magic maggie vibe and lo-fi delay is sinfully fantastic. After 5-10 minutes of full tilt incredibly jaw dropping best I've ever heard mega loud rippin steel, Mikey stops looks up and says, "(expletive, expletive) that is best amp I've ever played thru in my enitire life - it's inspiring! I want it!"
at that moment the other mortal guitar player and I wake up from our trance and realize we are in the middle of an old narrow lot 'walking' neighborhood, it's 6:30 pm and workers are unwinding on their front porches, families are out walking and the roof is blowing off the one 'hippie house' in the neighborhood. We run outside expecting to see the police, but instead arrive to see a crowd of young and old folks just kind of milling around like rubber necking curiosity seekers. No one seemed to be irate. An older woman steps up as we cringe ready for the rebuke and says "that was incredible, was that 'live' music or a recording...?" We bust out laughing "yes maam, 'live' we are musicians."
You simply had to be there.
And, yes, there was much discussion of selling off this and that and various offers and scheming as to how they were going to get that amp away from me, LOL! Too bad I can't do it justice like Mikey did.
Guts shots from a great site
http://www.silvertoneworld.net/ampli...1392/1392.html
We're still looking for those VV "before" pics.........Bill
$67.95
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK, OK, tonight... :-)
Check out the lacquer patina on the OT - and that's with a bright flash... :-)
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Oh yeah, almost forgot the brown handle shot.
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Truly amazing
4:20, my favorite time of day.
Um, wow! Did you bury that to age it?! Got it up and running yet? How does it sound?
Won't be done til this weekend. Had to put in a new PT and verb transformer. It came in with TWO power transformers, both inappropriate - one wired for filament, other for juice, steee-range. Hang up has been pots - tried to save as many as possible, but since the normal channel apparently had never been played, those remained frozen solid. Did the obligatory cap job, need to wire everything up, form the caps and then see if those caps on the PI will hold bias. Dont wanna change anything i dont have to. Both speakers were gone too. Oddly, the guy who had this given to him is so poor he wont let us recover it on the cheap. Including parts and labor will be about $175 not including any cab restoration (I got some spkrs I'm gonna lend him).
Edit - oh yeah, check out the bare hot wire going to the old burnt up RT - a death trap!!![IMG][/IMG]
I have to admit, it does make mine look pretty good. Thanks for posting those photos. This project brings up some questions about the details;
No wonder you needed the PT info, did you find a serviceable original or did you have to go with a new one?
I'm getting my speakers back from Weber tomorrow after being re-coned. It wasn't cheap but I couldn't see putting anything else in their place.
I have a treble pot that probably needs to be replaced, what are you going to use for replacements? There are so many brands, I don't know what the best choice would be and I'd rather not end up with a collection of parts.
The post-restoration photos and report should be interesting..........Bill
So, you're doing 40uF on the first stage then, Gris? What recto is going in there?
My repro BFVV is doing 60uF in the first stage, so I'm pushing the envelope with a JJ GZ34 / 5AR4, but from what I read it ought to be fine. My concern is when I try the 6V6 setup with the 60uF first stage, but I would likely go with a Copper Cap rectifier instead of the 5U4G tube.
Gris, I noticed that Allen/Heyboer PT (TP40?) in there. I have the very same in mine:
I hope y'all don't mind my pics...since this is a Vibroverb thread, I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring...yeah, it's not nearly as cool as these originals, but it's a Vibroverb!
"...pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field;
that, of course, they are many in number; or that, after all, they are other than the little,
shriveled, meagre, hopping, though loud and troublesome, insects of the hour."
-Edmund Burke
That looks awesome TJ! That's for posting those shots....Bill
FWIW, I put the '63 Vibroverb Bias-Vary Tremolo circuit in instead of the '64 BlackFace photo-resistor tremolo, so, it's part Brown Vibroverb!
I'm planning out the cabinet build now, but I may fire this one up through another speaker to test it. Otherwise, it still hasn't been powered up yet.
Heh, this has turned into quite the Vibroverb Appreciation Thread!
"...pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field;
that, of course, they are many in number; or that, after all, they are other than the little,
shriveled, meagre, hopping, though loud and troublesome, insects of the hour."
-Edmund Burke
Any idea why Fender abandoned that design so quickly? It seems to be well thought of these days -- maybe because it's not done that way anymore making it "purely" vintage??FWIW, I put the '63 Vibroverb Bias-Vary Tremolo circuit in instead of the '64 BlackFace photo-resistor tremolo, so, it's part Brown Vibroverb!
The PT is an Allen TP35, so new it's not even on his web page yet (or wasn't two weeks ago).
I guess I should have read the text on the cover more closely.
I just checked out the site, and it's a Hammond deal then? Seems the mounting bolts are a different size than the TP40, too but the other specs seem close.
Not sure why the bias-vary trem wasn't used in more modern amps. The Princeton Reverb kept it, though. It may have something to do with the fact that as the amps got more powerful it may not be the best thing to muck with the bias on them.
"...pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field;
that, of course, they are many in number; or that, after all, they are other than the little,
shriveled, meagre, hopping, though loud and troublesome, insects of the hour."
-Edmund Burke
Nope, it's a not a Hammond. Mines a new one not on the site and it is a clone of the one that was in the brown Vibroverb, which was also used on a few other F amps. Beats the heck out of paying MM money...
Even better, Gris! Do you know if Dave going to offer these as a regular product?
My build is in a Super Reverb chassis, so the TP40 fit just perfectly for mine. But you're right about the value of Allen's stuff. I'm a fan.
"...pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field;
that, of course, they are many in number; or that, after all, they are other than the little,
shriveled, meagre, hopping, though loud and troublesome, insects of the hour."
-Edmund Burke
O--K--, we burned her in and fired her up last weekend with all original tubes - top notch stuff. Quiet as a church mouse with the new filter caps. My buddy says "it sounds unreal." I say "it sounds like ass and is way too quiet." I look in the back and one tube is barely lighting. I pop in a set of Mesa 6L6 I know are good - BAM! Thrice as loud and twice as clean. 45 min of Hendrixing later, I'm on the phone with the owner, "lots of problems with this one afraid we'll have to junk her; just kidding; OK, I'll give you $1,500, a nice amp and another guitar but that's all..." WOW, what an amp. With the loud efficient speakers I put in (one old Pyle and one new Emi 'Cajun') this amp is really loud at 3, is very touch sensitive at 4 and will break up madly at 5 and above. Reminds me of a mini tweed Bassman, but with reverb and excellent tremolo. Next up, recovering her.
Gris,
I got my speakers back from Weber about a week ago and finally got them installed. They don't sound as loud as they did with the old cones, probably because they haven't loosened up yet. But not a bad noise to be heard, unlike before the re-cone. And the cones are a visual match for the old ones! I was not expecting that. The old cones were pretty fragile but I couldn't tell when they were in, they looked faded but otherwise OK (no holes or tears).
You say you're getting breakup at 5. I barely hear anything at 10. My old Mustang is probably to blame there. What were you playing? Maybe I need a CV Tele or ??? so I can do this amp a bit more justice.
So, what's it gunna' take to get this amp away from it's current owner? ....Bill
Last edited by cwilliamrose; 12-12-2008 at 01:04 PM.
CV Teles RULE
"...pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field;
that, of course, they are many in number; or that, after all, they are other than the little,
shriveled, meagre, hopping, though loud and troublesome, insects of the hour."
-Edmund Burke
HE"S PRETTY HARD UP RIGHT NOW> HE MIGHT ACTUALLY SELL, BUT FOR MORE MONEY THAN I CAN THROW AT HIM.
Oh I just saw you replaced the output transformer. I'll bet that's why you have all that headroom.
Last edited by Gris; 12-12-2008 at 05:52 PM.
Hey, BLUELOU is back!
The original Oxfords.
No choice there. Why would an old OT break up sooner? Or is the MM transformer that much "cleaner"?
Thanks for sharing the pictures of a beautiful amp.
Here are some miscellaneous remarks in no particular order after reading the thread-
The blue/white wire is not original and appears to go to the pot you are having trouble with. If so, perhaps it was an attempt to cure it, or perhaps it precipitated it.
The red/brown caps are correct for the amp.
I suspect you're correct if you think the reverb isn't sounding strong; it should. Dunno if the tube was changed when the work was done.
The numbers of amps in Fender's production runs varied, so I'm not sure much can be learned there. I've seen one s/n 6XX (barely), so around 500 seems reasonable. That said, I haven't seen any 1XX amps, but I don't pay that much attention.
I've neither seen nor heard of original amps with other than 10K5's, and, imo, they're pretty critical to the sound.
Sometimes, when speakers act up, it's because the voice coil goes out of alignment. When that happens, there's a trick by which it can sometimes be realigned without reconing. It involves using a chemical, maybe acetone, to soften the surround and then reposition it. The details are on the net somewhere. Sorry I didn't see the thread sooner.
I've seen that pen-annotated tube chart on other VV's. To me, it appears to be the production run and date, that is, production run #1 and MD. There are other units with the run inked in '2' and a stamped ME, and some with just an ink '2' and no other data. I've not yet seen a production run #3 amp, and that includes the s/n 6XX amp.
All the above is, fwiw, ymmv, imo, etc.
One question: On either of the amps in this thread, does the vibrato also work on the Normal channel?
It ought to. It's bias-vary tremolo....or is it?
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
There are four of those wires and I believe they go to the ground buss in each case (I'll confirm the next time I pull the chassis). Those wires were installed before I owned the amp -- somewhere between 1963 and late 1966. The pots were all good until fairly recently (the last 10-15 years). They probably deterioriated as a result of being stored in non-climate controlled rooms part of the time.
Those wires make me think the amp was sold because it hummed and after trying to improve it, the original owner gave up and got something else. I'll bet he wishes he had kept this amp now.
All the tubes were changed. The more I play through this amp the less concerned I become about the strength of the reverb. I saw a YouTube clip of somebody playing through a clone and the reverb was very noticable at settings of 2-3. Mine is there at 2-3 but maybe not quite as strong. I started out with almost none and a little cleaning of jacks and plugs brought it back.
I didn't want to change out the speakers but they were sounding very bad above 6 -- probably bottoming since there was no rub up to the point where they started having the problem. After seeing the old cones out of the frames I think I can understand what was going on. The suspension had gotten very weak due to the cone's paper deteriorating. They moved a lot at modest volume because there was little resistance from the cones. But they bottomed easily for the same reason. The new cones are much quieter because they're new and have a lot of suspension strength. They don't move nearly as much at the same volume settings. Breaking them in will free them up but never to the point where they move as freely as the old, fragile cones -- at least until they're 45 years old.
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me given my amp's serial #00566. The serial number would say it's a late run amp, not a first run unit. If Fender productiom runs were 150-200 units each my amp would have been in the third production batch.
But that doesn't explain the "1md" or "1mo" or what ever it says. The production stamps are AB1763 which should be the end of April, 1963. Maybe there was a #1, #2, and #3 production run, then a short run to use up parts?? Just guessing here, but maybe the "1md" note refers to a special run instead of a normal one.
Yes.
Thanks for your comments..........Bill
EDIT: Corrected serial number to 00566
Last edited by cwilliamrose; 12-17-2008 at 07:01 PM.
It is and it does.........BillIt ought to. It's bias-vary tremolo....or is it?
If the static is new, that's possible. I didn't recall a prior hum problem, but that would seem to be a curious fix. I'm not that conversant with electronics, though; that's why I asked about the vibrato.
Either way, good luck, and I'm sure you're right about the owner wanting it back now.
There's no question that the both paper and glue can be a problem. The technique I mentioned is just a reversible first step. If it solves the problem, the cone is saved. If it doesn't, nothing's been lost. Glad you're happy with the result, though.
As for the 1mo vs. 1 MD, the lettering is more clearly a 'D' on other amps, and MD for April 1963 is right next to ME for May. For that matter, there's also a 4XX amp with the same 1mo/MD tube chart. In between it and yours, there are several rubber stamped ME amps marked Run #2. Lastly, the 6XX amp is from Run #2, so I'm not sure any linear conclusion or partial run is possible. Fender, of course, is notorious for this sort of thing.
BTW, the VV's have a number of different stamps, not just AA1763. If it were a week/month code, and I'm not sure what it is, the other non-1763 stamps I've seen would be would be from May of 1963.
FWIW, and the lack of info about the amp is probably a testimony to its rarity.
It's part of the amp design's nature to hum a little. If you really need it to be silent at high volumes, you probably need a different design. I can imagine someone in 1963 wishing for a quieter amp and selling it when he found a better fit. It's all guess work since I received the amp as a gift and I never spoke to the previous owner.
I've learned a lot hanging around here. When I got here I didn't even know my amp was anything special. When I first got it I was 13 or 14 and I remember thinking how old fashioned it looked with all the new ones being black. You just didn't see many brown ones, even in 1966.
The cones were really fragile. I doubt they would have lasted long even if I could have improved the problem.
Agreed. I think Fender made this more of a mystery than it needed to be. They were not consistant in their markings or in their serial numbering.
It would be hard to argue that point.
You have obviously followed a long trail of VV info to know what you do about the details. Thanks again for your contributions. I happy to learn what I can when I can.
Judging from the VV's I've seen, I think a lot of the owners ended up with an amp that was significantly different than what they needed. There seems to be a higher percentage of destroyed or severely-modded brown VV's than any other amp I can think of. No statistical basis for this, however.
You're certainly correct about the lack of brown (and even tweed) amps that were around in the mid-'60's. And a lot of the ones that were around either got painted black or recovered.
From what you've said, the cones wouldn't likely have lasted at any volume, and that's not the sort of thing you want hanging over your head when you play.
What surprises me about the s/n, tube chart and parts inconsistencies is that usually Fender's amps are fairly straightforward, and it's the guitars that are all over the place.
I did check and the amp's tremolo is, in fact, output tube bias modulation. That's fairly rare, too, apparently. All in all, it's a pretty unique amp, and there aren't a lot of ones in better shape than yours.
Thanks again for the detailed information and photos.
It's rare for 6L6-based Fenders. However, it was the type used in 6V6-based amps from tweed Vibrolux and Tremolux then Princetons and Princeton Reverbs from the brown era until they were discontinued c. 1981 or so. Also used in the Brown Deluxe.
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
5965,
Would you care to hazard a guess as to how many '63 VV's still exist? You mentioned there are many modded ones so I guess those would have to count. When I see the one Gris is working on, it makes me wonder how many may have been left for dead.......Bill
Exactly. That's what my references show, too.
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