Amp Gain vs. Pedals

[NDRU]

I thought I'd beat this dead horse once again.

Do you prefer using an amp's gain or using a pedal? Power tube saturation, or preamp gain? I'd love to play clean all the time, but let's face it, I need the crutch!!

I go back & forth. The power tubes sound the best, but are the least controllable, and require too much volume to get enough gain from. And to use an attenuator meant that the amp wouldn't be clean.

Pedals, like my OCD, sound great, but slightly unnatural.

Preamp drive is something of a happy medium. Sounds fairly natural, is controllable & footswitchable. So why isn't it my favorite? It's a little generic, maybe?

I think a pedal in front of a good amp gives me the best tone, in the end. It sounds a little unnatural, but with the right one it's the same kind of unnatural as a gorgeous girl with tons of makeup on the red carpet.

[Rickenjangle]

I never really found an amp that I loved the clean and gain channels equally - well, at least, not in my price range. If I had the $$ for one of those new Marshall 4-channel wonders, well...

I have found that it's easiest (for ME) to have some OD pedals in front - and if they're not cutting it, I can lean over and make a few quick tweaks and get just what I need out of 'em.

[NDRU]

I was wondering recently, why don't amps have attenuators built into them? If powertube overdrive is the most desirable, why are Master Volume amps made to drive the preamp tubes?

[NDRU]

I never really found an amp that I loved the clean and gain channels equally - well, at least, not in my price range. If I had the $$ for one of those new Marshall 4-channel wonders, well...

I have found that it's easiest (for ME) to have some OD pedals in front - and if they're not cutting it, I can lean over and make a few quick tweaks and get just what I need out of 'em.

I think that's probably true. I buy amps for their clean sounds, and the gain usually doesn't cut it. They don't do both well. I read about certain Mesa's and people saying the clean isn't good but the gain is great. Who'd buy an amp with a bad clean tone?!

[Don]

I like all of it! I'm generally a clean player (meaning that I set my amp clean, not fret notes cleanly). I played at a blues jam last night and I was one of the only players that I heard solo with a clean sound!

With my Vibrolux Reverb, I set the amp clean (I love Fender blackface cleans) and use my OCD pedal and get dirty to dirtier sounds using my guitar's volume knobs. This amp, set clean, does not sound great with my fuzz pedal.

With my tweed Deluxe clone I set the amp dirty (I love dirty tweeds!) and roll back my guitar's volume to clean up. I also use a germanium fuzz pedal (Fulltone '69) with that amp and roll my guitar's volumes back to clean up the pedal as well.

With my MESA/Boogie Express I use the amp's clean and dirty channels (I love cascading gain!) along with the guitar's volume controls to get the level of dirt that I want. Although this amp has a great clean sound (I think MESA came a long way with the Express amps over the F-Series in this department) and great dirty sounds (the Express series amps don't have as much gain as the F-Series amps). My OCD and fuzz pedal do not work well with this amp at all! Very thin and fizzy. The amp's great with my other pedals.

[Kap'n]

I was wondering recently, why don't amps have attenuators built into them? If powertube overdrive is the most desirable, why are Master Volume amps made to drive the preamp tubes?

Attenuators are expensive and never really sound quite right for several different reasons.

FWIW, there are very few amps with master volumes I even like the sound of, much less ones with channel switching and multiple "gain" knobs. When I want to goose an amp a bit for more dirt, I usually use a

• Bad Bob - a somewhat gritty 'clean' boost
• ToneFactor Mule - a Red Llama clone that does nice 'edge of distortion' sounds without a midboost, as well as some funky Neil Youngish sounds when the gain goes above 12:00
• Fulltone OCD for higher gain sounds

All of those sound infinitely better, and more 'natural' than any amp I've used with preamp gain or channel switching.

The only amp I have with a master volume is a 4-input Marshall clone. I use the MV mainly for preamp voicing, and not for dirt especially. This is because it's got a big old 500pF bright cap across the volume control, and it'll take your head off if it isn't turned up to 5.

[ziess]

Y'know if you crank an amp and use an attenuator to drop some volume you can always just turn the volume knob down a bit to clean it up...
Sounds great and you can get any shade of grit from clean to Neil Young.

[Kap'n]

Y'know if you crank an amp and use an attenuator to drop some volume you can always just turn the volume knob down a bit to clean it up...
Sounds great and you can get any shade of grit from clean to Neil Young.

That's fine, but I've never found any attenuator that sounds quite real. They all sort of thin out the sound - at least the ones I've heard.

I'd rather match the amp to the venue.

[Mesotech]

I prefer power tube distortion, and clean up by using the guitars volume knob. As noted earlier, that means really cranking the amp, which means using small amps in small places. I even use small amps in big places and mic it. My use of pedals comes in when the amp just isn't quite small enough and I have to turn it down to a managable volume, then I use a pedal to try and make up the difference.

I have big amps, and I have small amps. My big amps are now getting used in outdoor gigs only.

[NDRU]

Attenuators are expensive and never really sound quite right for several different reasons.

FWIW, there are very few amps with master volumes I even like the sound of, much less ones with channel switching and multiple "gain" knobs. When I want to goose an amp a bit for more dirt, I usually use a

• Bad Bob - a somewhat gritty 'clean' boost
• ToneFactor Mule - a Red Llama clone that does nice 'edge of distortion' sounds without a midboost, as well as some funky Neil Youngish sounds when the gain goes above 12:00
• Fulltone OCD for higher gain sounds

All of those sound infinitely better, and more 'natural' than any amp I've used with preamp gain or channel switching.

The only amp I have with a master volume is a 4-input Marshall clone. I use the MV mainly for preamp voicing, and not for dirt especially. This is because it's got a big old 500pF bright cap across the volume control, and it'll take your head off if it isn't turned up to 5.

I guess "natural" is in the ear of the beholder. I like the sound of a pedal but it always sounds processed if I listen closely. But not bad.

And I find that what I like by itself is not what works in a band context. I don't notice that processed sound over cymbals and a telecaster.

[Kap'n]

I guess "natural" is in the ear of the beholder. I like the sound of a pedal but it always sounds processed if I listen closely. But not bad.

And I find that what I like by itself is not what works in a band context. I don't notice that processed sound over cymbals and a telecaster.

Maybe. It just doesn't really work for me. One of the things that IMHO you lose with an attenuator is the whole volume dynamic. The sound gets compressed, and you really can't tweak it with your hands on your guitar. If you have a soundperson, you can probably get away with it easier.

[NDRU]

I've never used an attenuator, though I've heard of the tone sucking issues. My bandmate uses one and it sounds good to me. I haven't heard his amp without it, though. He tends to do rhythm stuff, mostly, so maybe the compression isn't such a bad thing.

[NDRU]

I prefer power tube distortion, and clean up by using the guitars volume knob. As noted earlier, that means really cranking the amp, which means using small amps in small places. I even use small amps in big places and mic it. My use of pedals comes in when the amp just isn't quite small enough and I have to turn it down to a managable volume, then I use a pedal to try and make up the difference.

I have big amps, and I have small amps. My big amps are now getting used in outdoor gigs only.

So how big is your amp, and much gain do you get? is it a mild overdrive? I can get that from my amps, but it never feels like quite enough for soloing.

[NDRU]

I like all of it! I'm generally a clean player (meaning that I set my amp clean, not fret notes cleanly). I played at a blues jam last night and I was one of the only players that I heard solo with a clean sound!

With my Vibrolux Reverb, I set the amp clean (I love Fender blackface cleans) and use my OCD pedal and get dirty to dirtier sounds using my guitar's volume knobs. This amp, set clean, does not sound great with my fuzz pedal.

With my tweed Deluxe clone I set the amp dirty (I love dirty tweeds!) and roll back my guitar's volume to clean up. I also use a germanium fuzz pedal (Fulltone '69) with that amp and roll my guitar's volumes back to clean up the pedal as well.

With my MESA/Boogie Express I use the amp's clean and dirty channels (I love cascading gain!) along with the guitar's volume controls to get the level of dirt that I want. Although this amp has a great clean sound (I think MESA came a long way with the Express amps over the F-Series in this department) and great dirty sounds (the Express series amps don't have as much gain as the F-Series amps). My OCD and fuzz pedal do not work well with this amp at all! Very thin and fizzy. The amp's great with my other pedals.

I've seen you at the Mesa board. You reverse your clean & dirty channels, right? I loved the sound of the 5:50's clean.

My OCD doesn't like my Mesa either. Sounds too metal or something.

[ziess]

That's fine, but I've never found any attenuator that sounds quite real. They all sort of thin out the sound - at least the ones I've heard.

I'd rather match the amp to the venue.

I agree, that's why I have four amps all of different power ratings. If I were to use an attenuator it'd be to tame a little off my stage volume when one amp wouldn't be quite loud enough and one might be too loud.

FWIW, I have preferred the sound of an attenuated amp to most pedals I've tried.

Tommy.

[Jazzguru]

THD (Univalve and Bivalve) has a built in attenuator and the more you use it the worse the sound gets - however with low output power tubes (6v6 etc) in the Univalve it sings (no attenuation). On a wierd note this could be the best distortion, most controlable (by way of changing preamp and output tubes) distortion "pedal" ever ( perhaps the most expensive!)! It will never replace my DRRI or VibroKing but it does have its strengths!

[NDRU]

THD (Univalve and Bivalve) has a built in attenuator and the more you use it the worse the sound gets - however with low output power tubes (6v6 etc) in the Univalve it sings (no attenuation). On a wierd note this could be the best distortion, most controlable (by way of changing preamp and output tubes) distortion "pedal" ever ( perhaps the most expensive!)! It will never replace my DRRI or VibroKing but it does have its strengths!

I don't quite understand, you say it sounds bad, but then you say it's the best distortion?

[Kap'n]

No, you can get all sorts of high gain sounds out of a Univalve.

The attenuator in the Univalve is not so good. To be fair, it's no worse than many other ones, but if that's what a full-fledged hotplate sounds like, I can't figure out why (some) people rave about them.

[NDRU]

Ah, so the univalve has preamp gain and attenuation?

[Kap'n]

Yes, but I don't think anybody uses the attenuator.

[Gris]

I like the sound of my amp dirty, but it just doesn't get dirty enough (even at high volume) for certain songs. It's a '67 Bandmaster head. So, I HAVE to run both an overdrive and a high gain fuzz-type pedal in tandem.

[Don]

I've seen you at the Mesa board. You reverse your clean & dirty channels, right? I loved the sound of the 5:50's clean.

Yes. I use the Blues mode of the dirty channel for a clean sound and the crunch mode of the clean channel for a dirty sound.

This makes my clean sound fatter and my dirty sound brighter so it stings more.

This isn't carved in stone, though. I'm quite fickle.

[Don]

I didn't like the attenuator in the Univalve at all. I spent a long lunch with my Les Paul, a Univalve, a mess of power tubes and a good cabinet at Mercenary Audio before I bought my MESA/Boogie.

[Don]

The VR and OCD make very nice cranked Marshall like noises. It's a lot of fun.

[Jazzguru]

What i am saying is the attenuator on the THD works ok, as long as you don't dial up too much attenuation. No more than 1/2 of its range.

[NDRU]

I didn't like the attenuator in the Univalve at all. I spent a long lunch with my Les Paul, a Univalve, a mess of power tubes and a good cabinet at Mercenary Audio before I bought my MESA/Boogie.

The Univalve lets you change to different types of power tubes?

[wingnut1]

What i am saying is the attenuator on the THD works ok, as long as you don't dial up too much attenuation. No more than 1/2 of its range.

I agree a little attenuation sounds okay, too much and it sucks the tone right out of the amp. I prefer to have the correct size amp for the venue though and run it to get natural power tube distortion.

[NDRU]

Recently I was A/B ing my amp's gain with my OCD at rehearsal. In the beginning of the night the amp's gain was winning, but by the end of the night I couldn't turn off the OCD.

Did my ears adjust? Did the amp warm up and make the pedal sound better? I don't remember tweaking that much, my taste just changed during the evening.

[Don]

The Univalve lets you change to different types of power tubes?

That's the point of the Univalve and Bivalve. You can change power tubes, even different type without re-biasing. I tried a 6L6GC, and EL34, 6556, KT66?...
You can even use an EL84 with a Yellow Jacket.

Unfortunately, it wasn't my type of amp.

[Don]

Recently I was A/B ing my amp's gain with my OCD at rehearsal. In the beginning of the night the amp's gain was winning, but by the end of the night I couldn't turn off the OCD.

Did my ears adjust? Did the amp warm up and make the pedal sound better? I don't remember tweaking that much, my taste just changed during the evening.

Could be ear fatigue or something getting hot inside the amp. When things get hot resistance changes. My amps seem to stay pretty steady, but, except for the Deluxe clone, they're set clean most of the time.

My '69 Pedal on a hot sunny day is another story!

[Gris]

Amps sound VERY different after a couple of hours - usually better, esp. if they are clean-ish to begin with... ;-)

[Mesotech]

I have a vatiety of different sized amps to pick from. Interestingly, the smaller amps tend to get used the most. My 5e3 was "too loud" until I swapped some tubes around with different versions (v1- 12ax7 v2-12ay7) and now it's perfect. A little 5 watt Fender Champ is what I used before, and ran it through a Marshall 4x12 cab. I also will use an Epi Valve Jr (either through the 4x12 or through the matching Epi 1x12 cab). The Epi gives the most "gain", but doesn't always sound the best on the cleans. A lot of what amp I use depends on the music style being played. I play in different bands, so no one amp handles everything. For the "rock" band, it's the Epi, for the classic rock and Cajun/Zydeco bands, it's now the 5e3 but could be the Champ.

For the "big shows" (outside gigs), I will use a Marshall JCM 2000 DSL-100, an Ampeg VL1002 (rarely), a Fender Blues Deluxe, or a Boogie Mk1 clone (also rarely).

Keep in mind, I (and everyone else in the different bands) like "low" stage volumes. We need to hear ourselves onstage, but leave the volume war up to the PA. It is quite common for us to be holding a conversation onstage without yelling at each other (calling out either key changes or the next song). We use stage monitors to hear the combined mix, but it's also set pretty low. My 5 watt'ers are louder than the monitors.

For the PA, we use different ones with the different bands, but they're all rather grossly overpowered. This allows us to set volumes fairly loud outside, but still have tons of clean headroom available if needed. Once you start distorting a PA by pushing it more than 60 percent, you're really doing nothing more than increasing the overall noise floor. Noise kills sound quality.

One of the most valuable thing I've learned by going this route is that small amps sound great mic'd, and big amps sound like a$$ when running at less than peak performance settings. Lots of musicians (not just guitarists) tend to believe louder is better and crank up their rigs to overpower most affordable PA's. Then the vocals are either too low, or distorted beyond recognition. Meanwhile, the music and the audience suffers. Guitarists also should keep in mind that most 4x12 cabs are built to throw sound out to the audience, and can't be heard well at close proximity, so they tend to turn up the amp loud enough for them to hear themselves while their audience sits at the threshold of pain. It takes a little bit of getting used to, but learning to play at lower volumes gives you the ability to "hear" the music better. It takes longer to get other musicians to learn the same thing, but it's rather rewarding to not go home with ringing ears or a pulled muscle in your back from lugging around huge amounts of gear.

[Pearly Grapes]

I've never heard pre-amp distortion that I like; Too fizzy. Of course, power tube distortion sounds best but is often too loud. A "good" pedal is a pretty good compromise. I've tried a bunch of OD pedals (probably 30-40) & IMHO the best is the Zvex Box of Rock. It's the only one that sounds like an amp, not a pedal.
PG

[trevorus]

I might have to try the Box of Rock, I have heard great things about it. I have a Seymour Duncan Twin Tube Classic on the way, and I just got a Marshall Jackhammer for the gainy stuff that my AC30 can't quite do alone. I love the sound of the AC30 breaking up, and I sometimes use my EHX Soul Preacher's volume knob to push it a bit. Works out pretty well, depending on what I happen to be doing at the time.

I also have 2 tube screamers (a TS7, and a TS9DX), a Danelectro Daddy-O, an old DOD FX55 2-knob distortion, a Big Muff... Apparently I have a addiction to dist/OD pedals.

[Bearwolf]

+1 on the box of rock, on lower settings it seems to mostly change the character of my DRRI, more like an amp then a pedal as pearlygrapes said.

[jpap]

+1000 on BoR, and further on Carl Martin Plexitone and the Blackstar tube pedals... Sound terrific anywhere, with any axe...

[Huckleberry]

The Dr. Z Airbrake is a fantastic attenuator. Caveat: I've mostly heard it with Dr. Z amps.

[Gris]

For the PA, we use different ones with the different bands, but they're all rather grossly overpowered. This allows us to set volumes fairly loud outside, but still have tons of clean headroom available if needed.

I AGREE TOTALLY.

One of the most valuable thing I've learned by going this route is that small amps sound great mic'd, and big amps sound like a$$ when running at less than peak performance settings.

I AGREE TOTALLY.

It takes a little bit of getting used to, but learning to play at lower volumes gives you the ability to "hear" the music better.

I DISAGREE, WHEN USING A BIGGER AMP. SEE YOUR OWN SECOND PARAGRAPH ABOVE (BIGGER AMPS SOUND LIKE A$$ UNLESS CRANKED.)

Peace out.

[Mesotech]

Gris, I was speaking about overall lower stage volumes, meaning getting there by using smaller amps. It can still be plenty loud enough to hear yourself, but doesn't have to fill the house with sound (like big amps do). That's what sound reinforcement is for.

[Gris]

Gris, I was speaking about overall lower stage volumes, meaning getting there by using smaller amps. It can still be plenty loud enough to hear yourself, but doesn't have to fill the house with sound (like big amps do). That's what sound reinforcement is for.

Yeah, it is amazing what a good (lotsa headroom) PA will make a small amp sound like. I once played an outdoor gig w/ a BF Princeton and a HRDx (low vol) both miced - wonderful sound. I sometimes use a 1961 Gibson GA-8 (9 watts - 12 in spkr) miced. BUT, you have to stand out in the audience area and have someone else play your rig - otherwise you won't believe how 'big' it sounds, LOL.