Improving time with metronome

[69strat]

I've been practicing more with the metronome and setting it on "two" and "four" for swing stuff. I'll play scales, sing or do simple melodies. Where I get all discombobulated is when I raise the tempo to a double time type thing where it's real fast like a fast country tune or something. I keep turning the beat around and making the two and four the downbeats. If say the tempo was 240 bpm, should my foot be on the two and four, or the one and three? I've tried it both ways and I still always want to turn it around.

Anyone got some excercises or advice on how to train my brain for this?

[Offshore Angler]

Use your knowledge of time signatures to understand the rythym pattern. Count out 1/2s, quarters, eighths, 16ths ect. If you are merely tapping your foot the excerise doesn't really teach you anything. Count the beats, then the "and" beats, etc.

A really good excerise is to play quater notes in 4 but replace one quarter with 16ths, and then move the 16ths to a different beat each measure.

It would be 1,2,3 e and a, 4, 1,2 e and a 3, 4, 1 e and a 2, 3, 4, etc.

I often use my own bastardization of the Suzuki method to play a complex or unusual rythym part, for example, for the main rythym guitar on the Eagle's One of These Nights I just repeat the words "Mississippi moonshine makes me high" in my head and play that rythym on the guitar. It's dopy but it works for me.

What you want to concentrate on is not just keeping straight time, but also being able to play complex patterns while doing so.

For solos, it's really helpful to count out the rythym sometimes. It keeps you locked in. Practive alternate and sweep picking on 16ths for example, and then incorporate that into a solo.

[69strat]

Offshore, no disrespect, but did you read my question? Subdividing the beat and all that is not what I'm asking about. I'm solid on subdividing, synocpation, and the counting stuff. No problem playing in time with most all types of drum beats whether it's slow funk grooves, latin stuff, or fast shred tempos.

My problem is the fast two beat thing that I'm asking about. Or a fast swing where it's moving so fast, and you only hear the 2 and 4's. No time to count anything. I'll end up turning it around. I'll still play in meter but it will end up backwards. I want to know how, when the metronome gets to 250-300 bpm (say 150 when clicks are "2" and "4"), I keep feeling the snare as 1 and 3, Hope that makes sense.

I was just hoping for some different excercises, or for a way to trick my mind into staying on the 2 and 4 at supersonic speed.

[elicross]

If you're having trouble following the beat at those tempos, you need to practice at a lower tempo you're comfortable with, then very gradually increase the tempo (over the space of weeks or even months) until you find you're comfortable at the faster tempos. You'll get nothing but frustration out of practicing at a tempo you're not yet comfortable with.

[69strat]

Thanks elicross, that makes good sense. You know, that's what I've been doing. slow and then over time I'll speed it up gradually. I guess I'll have to dig up more patience and go even slower. What's really frustrating is I don't have a problem playing at very fast tempos on the drum machine/metronome, with most any beats ('cept that damn two beat thing.

Sometimes even slow I'll turn it around if I'm not paying attention. My brain is just wired that way. I'll keep at it. thanks for the help guys.

[elicross]

It really can take a lot of patience to start slow and take your time getting up to those faster tempos. The natural tendency is to think "I'm doing so well with this tempo, I should just go ahead and add another 20 bpm." But then you can end up "over your head" and getting frustrated again.

I guess the trick is to stay in a groove right between boredom and frustration. Like if you're bored and playing well at the current tempo, add 20 bpm, and if you find yourself getting off beat again, knock it back 10 or 15 bpm and play like that for a while. I guess it's about having the discipline not just to practice and practice, but to limit the pace so that you're actually improving and not just repeating the same mistakes.

I could be wrong, of course. I don't play very fast and I don't play swing, but I know what works for me.

[Offshore Angler]

[quote=69strat;448958]Offshore, no disrespect, but did you read my question? quote]

Uh, did you read my answer? The reason you are losing your place is because you aren't counting, plain and simple. Counting out a 240 beat takes practice. There are no shortcuts. If you are relying on foot tapping for a quick beat you're in big trouble in the first place. If you use a metronome, why are you tapping your foot? That's the first problem.

Counting a fast 2/4 is no different than counting a slow 12/8. If you use a metronome, us a good, old fashioned mechanical one. It is also your personal conductor. On a 2/4 you can actually think of it as the wand. Using a click track style is great if your a drummer, but sucks for a soloist.


I wish there was an easy trick to get you over this, but in the end, you just need to practice with a high degree of discipline. And DO NOT tap your foot if using a metronome. Bad habit to get into, and now you have to break it. You should be LISTENING for the beat, not regulating it with your body (unless you are a solo act, I guess).

Watch a jazz cat. They will always count the fast beat with snaps and even count aloud during a break.

Why is foot tapping bad? Stand up tap your toe. Now, while maintaining 180 per minute, do the sixteenth exercise above while keeping the foot at 240. Most people can do it while sitting with practice, but not many can standing up and playing. You've got a drummer who's paid to keep time. It's not the guitar player's job.

[pc]

In high-tempo jazz/bop stuff, the hi-hat is always snapping two and four. That is literally lesson one of a drummer's jazz/swing class. Very little else the drummer does will be on a downbeat in that style of music, unless it's a high-school stage band and all he can master is the "ding dih-dih ding" pattern on the ride cymbal.

I'm a jazz cat and do dozens and dozens of trio and quartet gigs per year, and no "jazz cat" who isn't a sad parody of himself counts aloud or snaps during a break. Very rarely do we ever start off a tune with snaps either. Most incarnations of these groups I play with start off with either the drummer giving you 2 and 4 on the hat for a couple bars, or the leader of the band counting off at the top with numbers and "tongue clicks" where the tongue clicks are on 2 and 4.

"Un [tch] two [tch] Un two three..." (You almost never get four in the second bar of the count off because the horn(s) will have a pickup).

(It IS a sad parody now that we all say "Un" or "wah" instead of "One," but that's because of Jamey Aebersold being so deliberately enunciative of "One" we do anything not to sound like him).

A samba/Brazillian tune will almost always be counted of by the drummer and/or percussionist setting up the beat.

Every conservatory jazz student in his freshman year is taught to practice with a metronome exactly as 69strat is suggesting, on two and four. Furthermore, elicross is exactly right. Start on low tempi and keep working your way up. Also, nearly every beginning jazz student is encouraged to get that foot tap happening on two and four.

Chuck, a drummer IS tapping his left foot (on two and four) at 220+ BPM songs, while doing WAY more other stuff with the other three limbs than we guitarists do. If he can't do it, he can't play jazz. Indeed, if you watch a truly accomplished drummer, he is actually tapping all four beats with his foot, but often hitting heel-toe-heel-toe, where the toe tap "chicks" the hi-hat. Why the heck can't we tap our foot on 2 and 4 also?

That said, my foot tapping started out more as marching. What I did (as encouraged by one of my profs in college) was ever so slightly march to the beat (on songs with reasonable tempi). Anyone who was ever in a high school or college marching band (or the military ) knows the downbeat is on the left foot. Thus, 2 and 4 are always on the right foot.

Just like OSA suggests, after a time, your own beat-keeping devices will become internalized, and foot taps are simply felt inside the player. However, if I'm playing a wide-open bop tune where the drummer gets to solo a bit and deliberately turns the beat around several times (listen to any Dave Weckl solo), I often fall back into a light march step to make sure I don't get turned around.

[Offshore Angler]

pc, I play with a lot of jazz cats, several on records I guarantee you own ( stated my musical career as a trumpet player) , and they count with snaps to this day. I'm talking about counting out whole rests and stuff during the break on the charts. Counting in 2's and 4's gets you nowhere if you're in 5 or 7.

[Kap'n]

No wonder I'm so screwed up. My internal mechanism has the accent on 3.

Why is that?

[pc]

pc, I play with a lot of jazz cats, several on records I guarantee you own ( stated my musical career as a trumpet player) , and they count with snaps to this day. I'm talking about counting out whole rests and stuff during the break on the charts. Counting in 2's and 4's gets you nowhere if you're in 5 or 7.

Okay. Maybe life is different in Rochacha.

If you count or snap in breaks in any jazz group in this town, you'll never be asked back again, especially if it is an odd time sig. You are expected to be able to follow silently. Breaks in the charts are meant for silence, not for some cartoon character jazzer snapping his fingers while thumbing his soul patch.

Oh, and please do tell me what jazz players you've played with that I own records/CDs of!!! I think that's really cool. Did you play guitar or trumpet with them? I know you started in TX, so I'm dying to know because there were indeed some incredible players that came out of N. Texas' conservatory.

[69strat]

Thanks much guys. Offshore, I appreciate your advice. I guess I'm trying to say that I do count, and understand the beat divisions fine. I'm counting and feeling the pattern, but I STILL will turn it around at fast tempo, even when counting on that particular beat. So I was asking more about should I focus on the 1 or 3 or.. I know I have to keep at the slow tempo. But still not sure about the foot. I learn timing best by first tapping my foot, and then it becomes more internalized. At fast tempos it's very hard to foot tap quarter notes.

You know when you see a band playing and the audience is clapping along, when I clap along I want to clap opposite, if it's a beat like I'm describing. I'm still feeling a beat/pulse, but I'm feeling it reversed from what most are. No one's counting. I'm wanting to know how to switch it around in my mind. I've been counting for decades, it's time to take it further and that's why I'm asking.

I'll keep my foot tapping, but also play without it tapping. I think on most beats I'm fine. But you know some of my favorite guitarists tap there foot as they're playing. I was just watching a Brett Garsed video and he's a killer player, tapping his foot away on all four beats. I was always taught to move your body to the beat to learn to feel it.


Also one of the best bassists I've ever seen locally, and he's subbed for Stu Ham, played with Buddy Guy etc.. taps his foot quarter notes no matter what the tempo, sometimes his foot is going so fast.
PC, your reply really cleared up stuff for me, thank you.
This is a new feel for me I guess. I have to keep working the slower tempos. I did notice I could up the tempo up a bit last night, so I'm making some progress.

thanks for all the help everyone.

[69strat]

In high-tempo jazz/bop stuff, the hi-hat is always snapping two and four. That is literally lesson one of a drummer's jazz/swing class. Very little else the drummer does will be on a downbeat in that style of music, unless it's a high-school stage band and all he can master is the "ding dih-dih ding" pattern on the ride cymbal.

I'm a jazz cat and do dozens and dozens of trio and quartet gigs per year, and no "jazz cat" who isn't a sad parody of himself counts aloud or snaps during a break. Very rarely do we ever start off a tune with snaps either. Most incarnations of these groups I play with start off with either the drummer giving you 2 and 4 on the hat for a couple bars, or the leader of the band counting off at the top with numbers and "tongue clicks" where the tongue clicks are on 2 and 4.

"Un [tch] two [tch] Un two three..." (You almost never get four in the second bar of the count off because the horn(s) will have a pickup).

(It IS a sad parody now that we all say "Un" or "wah" instead of "One," but that's because of Jamey Aebersold being so deliberately enunciative of "One" we do anything not to sound like him).

A samba/Brazillian tune will almost always be counted of by the drummer and/or percussionist setting up the beat.

Every conservatory jazz student in his freshman year is taught to practice with a metronome exactly as 69strat is suggesting, on two and four. Furthermore, elicross is exactly right. Start on low tempi and keep working your way up. Also, nearly every beginning jazz student is encouraged to get that foot tap happening on two and four.

Chuck, a drummer IS tapping his left foot (on two and four) at 220+ BPM songs, while doing WAY more other stuff with the other three limbs than we guitarists do. If he can't do it, he can't play jazz. Indeed, if you watch a truly accomplished drummer, he is actually tapping all four beats with his foot, but often hitting heel-toe-heel-toe, where the toe tap "chicks" the hi-hat. Why the heck can't we tap our foot on 2 and 4 also?

That said, my foot tapping started out more as marching. What I did (as encouraged by one of my profs in college) was ever so slightly march to the beat (on songs with reasonable tempi). Anyone who was ever in a high school or college marching band (or the military ) knows the downbeat is on the left foot. Thus, 2 and 4 are always on the right foot.

Just like OSA suggests, after a time, your own beat-keeping devices will become internalized, and foot taps are simply felt inside the player. However, if I'm playing a wide-open bop tune where the drummer gets to solo a bit and deliberately turns the beat around several times (listen to any Dave Weckl solo), I often fall back into a light march step to make sure I don't get turned around.

This really, really helps me out and cleared some things up! I just feel better about the whole thing and more confident now. Thanks PC!!

now where's that metronome!!!!

[pc]

No prob. There are indeed some high-end guys, guitarists, bassists, horn players, etc., who all tap their foot all the time. Nothing wrong with it.

You're on the right track. It takes time, especially with a lot of jazz stuff. In order to get that amazingly organic feel, great players will often imply turning the beat around, and you have to just feel that 2 and 4 smack in your gut to stay with it. It takes awhile.

Same with playing really fast heads on jazz standards. Any head written by Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie is an amazing dexterity exercise on guitar because lines written on horns (particularly sax I find) are flat-out counterintuitive on guitar.

That's exactly how I learned to play the head to "Anthropology." Metronome on 2 and 4 and painfully slow, then over a period of weeks and months, ramping it up slowly. At the end of each practice session (after I left Anthropology and moved on to other things), I'd return to Anthropology and try it one time at a high tempo. Each week and month that went by, I found I had more and more of the feel under my belt.

Oh, and phooey on using only a standard click-clack metronome. It's what I started with, but I eventually moved to a pocket digital metronome when I got to college because I could set it to play all four beats, but to accent 2 and 4. By the end of that year I could easily just do 2 and 4 because I had trained my brain to hear them as the strong beats in jazz.

[Offshore Angler]

pc, you've got mail!

[69strat]

I'll check out Anthropology. I've been doing simple, simple melodies like an Xmas tune or something so I can concentrate on the time.
I'm glad you cleared this up for me. I've been forcing my foot on 1 and 3, and after a few bars I notice my foot is on 2 and 4 naturally. I guess that's good, but what's not good is the tune is now backwards as well. My playing is feeling it as 1's and 3's. I'll keep it slow and keep counting emphasizing the 2 and 4 like you and OSA suggest.

When I tap on 1-2-3-4 I can keep tempo much better. But I'm going to work on letting 2 and 4 become more natural (hopefully).

[69strat]

You know what's weird, I just mentally practiced a few melodies in my head and tapped 2 and 4 with my right foot, instead of left foot. It seemed to fall into place easily and I could feel it. No counting, just feeling a more natural pulse.

For years and years I always tap my left foot. I'm left handed but play right handed. On some things I'm ambidextrous (like writing or throwing) but others I can't seem to do either way (swing a golf club!). So I wonder if this has something to do with how I'm feeling things in reverse?

That thing on marching that PC wrote about got me thinking and trying this. amazing.

[pc]

Hey cool, glad that feels more right--it sure did for me.

Chuck--got it, thanks! Very cool.

[LoveBandit]

You are expected to be able to follow silently. Breaks in the charts are meant for silence, not for some cartoon character jazzer snapping his fingers while thumbing his soul patch.

Like, yo, dad-io, that is funny as hell - dig? LB.

[pc]

I actually have a very good friend who is a monster tenor and bari sax player and makes his career of music--teaching private lessons during the days and playing out two or three nights a week with various Jazz bands. He (until very recently) had the soul patch for years.

Vaughn Weister, the jazz arranging professor when I was in college who also ran the "A ensemble" big band, has always had the soul patch and absolutely talks like that all the time. He still refers to (vinyl) records as "sides" and has a collection of somewhere in the 10,000s. He's the one who gave me the nickname 'pc.'

[JAM]

.

[pc]

No debate, other than Chuck and I disagreeing on counting or snapping aloud during rest measures in mid-song. As far as counting, Chuck told him what works for him and I told him what works for me. He tried my idea and seemed to like it.

No debate, just options.

[Offshore Angler]

It's no big deal. I just have been around the block many times and think in terms of styles. Some music gets the 2's and 4's accented. Other styles get the 1's and 3's. So if you have played many styles you get to a place where you never always count the same. Doing a disco beat for example, requires a different way of looking at things than a stroll or a waltz. Always keying on the same beats in 4/4 will screw with my head if I need to shift styles. I grew up musicaly watching a baton to know where I was. There are traditional wand patterns for different time signatures. If you found yourself lost, all you did was look at the conductor's wand and see which beat it was on. The upstroke is always the last beat of the measure, so getting back to one was never more than a few beats away.

[bonefish]

i'm not a jazz cat, but i believe the question started out refering to smoking fast country swing, and in that i'm fairly qualified (albeit w/out the theory and training of some of you guys). my solution to beat placement confusion is a faux steel bend held untill the beat becomes clear in my head again. sounds cool and gets you out of a tight spot at the same time!