Refin: Picking Techniques

[demioblue]

Your picking on all the jamzone tracks have a shitload of dynamics. There's loud, soft and a very subtle harmonic to almost each note. you're using your picking to accentuate notes. Though the latter is mostly tone, I want to know how you get to pick like that. Do you use your fingers rather than a pick? I know a few guitarists have this ability. Not many, but a few. Andy Timmons definately comes to mind. But I can't get to ask him, can I? Heh... I've not even heard SRV pick like that. Clapton does it once in a while, but mostly he's full on. Not even Vai or Satriani does that. I know Al DiMeola has it in bits, but the main guy I know who works very well with that is Andy Timmons.

Here's an example of Andy Timmons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fON3Ia5HSio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaVVZYOvMFY

You have a similar touch, don't you think?

How do you train that sort of picking? Is it a conscious effort? Is the guitar volume set to full? or do you leave it a bit off?

Tell me!!! That's the one thing I'm totally wanting to learn, but don't know how.

[djinn1973]

I don't have touch any where near as good as Refin; but for what its worth, I do have some suggestions...
I think "the trick" is in amp settings.
All amps have a sweet spot where if you pick softly the notes sound clean, and if you dig in and pick hard the amp brakes up. Make adjustments to your amps volume knob (or knobs) until you find the setting that gives you that balance between lightly pick clean notes and heavier picked notes that give you grit.
After that its a matter of finding a few players who's dynamics you like, and listening to, and emulating the touch and phrasing on few of the songs on their albums.

I thought the Andy Timmons examples you linked to were perfect, in addition I would also suggest finding some albums by:
Larry Carlton
Jeff Golub
Hope that helps.

[melody]

Fezz nails it most folks whatch there fretting hand, me I look at my picking hand contstanly moveing it, If I want a nice rythm sound I pick where the neck meets the body even farther up sometimes too.. Plam muting is a good thing to work on for solos much beeter control of the notes..Refin is a monster!

[demioblue]

It ain't the amp settings. It's how hard or soft you pick, whether you use your fingers or a plectrum, and wherther you pick close to the bridge or over the neck. You can do the same thing on an acoustic, so this part of playing has to do with right (or picking) hand technique. The only way you can train yourself to do this is to listen, and practice, and learn how to get the sounds you want to hear...

That's what I thought, only I just can't get it at all! How am I supposed to set up my amp or pedals?

Andy Timmons once said here in a clinic that he leaves his guitar at half volume. Would that be the key? I tried it, but I'm not getting it either. I think it's got to do with my pickups. They're high out put pups, and I can't seem to get them to clean up much.

Problem is, I've heard John Petrucci get this kind of texture to his playing too, and I'm using the same bloody guitar!!!

Oh, another thing... Do I need a tube amp? If Refin is coming in here and tells me he records DI, I'm gonna go jump off a building... whahahaha...

[cooltone]

constant manipulation of the volume and/or tone knobs, palm muting, adding or subtracting gain, using and not using a pick, 'plucking' strings one minute and strumming them the next, changing your right hand's position from the bridge to the neck, etc..

plus, refin is just insanely good.

[Gravity Jim]

Fezz tells the truth.

There's no amp setting/effects chain/pickup/knob roll that's going to suddenly produce the kind of picking dynamics that you hear in refin's playing.

Refin is a natural who has worked a lot... a guitarist so good that it's kind of amazing we even know him. :)

I've been playing for many years, concentrating on the same kinds of players that refin has, and just recently took possession of the best amplifier I've ever played through. Right now, I feel like my guitar --> amp thing is pretty close to an optimum (barring someone leaving me a Fuchs Triple Overdrive in their will), and even that did not miraculously give me refin's tonal control.

IF you have the raw talent and practice continually, you'll get it.

[NeoFauve]

It ain't the amp settings. It's how hard or soft you pick, whether you use your fingers or a plectrum, and wherther you pick close to the bridge or over the neck. You can do the same thing on an acoustic, this part of playing has to do with right (or picking) hand technique. The only way you can train yourself to do this is to listen, and practice, and learn how to get the sounds you want to hear...

Absolutely.

In a world where people routinely drop hundreds on an amp or a set of p'ups to get _____'s sound, try any tiny thing that would seem unlikely to matter.
You'll be surprised what a trick piece of gear you have hanging from your wrist.

[clayville]

If Refin is coming in here and tells me he records DI, I'm gonna go jump off a building... whahahaha...

Most of the time refin records direct into a (now discontinued) Johnson J-station.

But he sounds that good no matter what the guitar or signal chain. Just... a little different depending on the equipment.

Once I told him his left hand sounded like precision pneumatic hammers pounding away at the fretboard... and he relayed that he actually has a very light touch.

[demioblue]

IF you have the raw talent and practice continually, you'll get it.

Ouch... That's gonna be hard.

But after fooling around with volume and gain knobs on both the guitar AND the amp, I managed to get a setting that allows me to do what I want. I think I've managed to sort that bit out.

The trick now, is getting it to be loud where it's supposed to be loud, and soft where it's supposed to be soft... THAT's the hard part...

[demioblue]

You'd better get a parachute.

Oh shit...

[demioblue]

Once I told him his left hand sounded like precision pneumatic hammers pounding away at the fretboard... and he relayed that he actually has a very light touch.

Whahaha... I'm a

[Mesotech]

From what I understand, he does teach guitar. Though I'm fairly sure you have to go to Florida for the lessons.

[demioblue]

From what I understand, he does teach guitar. Though I'm fairly sure you have to go to Florida for the lessons.

Well, either I'll have to stop working, and devote my self to this full time for a year and fly there, or I'll have make so much $$$ that I can afford to go there every week.

Lets see... each flight is 22 hours. I'll take 2 hour lessons each week, and maybe I can just take up Saturdays and Sundays flying there and back...

[ES350]

do a search on 'articulation'...that should keep you busy for a decade or two...

[elicross]

There's one way your amp settings could help, and it's something I've been trying lately:

If you have an amp with some touch sensitivity (or a modeler, or even an overdrive pedal, I guess), turn it up where it's louder and dirtier than you're usually comfortable with. Then, instead of turning down the guitar's volume knob to get the sound where you want it, try and get it there using just your hands. You end up having to use a lighter touch with both hands, which I think can help in developing the wider range of attacks and techniques you can use to give your picking more dynamics.

[Offshore Angler]

A sweet compressor works wonders in elicross' scenario. You can change the tibre without spiking the volume.

[pauln]

The internet is a wonderful thing.
A few months ago I discovered that my picking style is the one called "efficiency picking", except I actually do it the reverse of the way explained. I tend to pick "out from" between a pair of strings rather than "into" as I find it described. Really more random.
A few nights ago I discovered that the way I hold and use my pick is the method used for "circular picking" where most of the picking motion is done by flexing the thumb joint.
So, I'm circular random reverse efficiency picking?
That's what comes from being self taught...

[TommyJ]

I believe alot of refin's picking tech goes hand in hand with his
fretting hand,and many years of diligent practise.and then you have the simple fact that he is very talented..
PC also has some very good tech too,very talented also..

[demioblue]

do a search on 'articulation'...that should keep you busy for a decade or two...

[demioblue]

If you have an amp with some touch sensitivity (or a modeler, or even an overdrive pedal, I guess), turn it up where it's louder and dirtier than you're usually comfortable with. Then, instead of turning down the guitar's volume knob to get the sound where you want it, try and get it there using just your hands. You end up having to use a lighter touch with both hands, which I think can help in developing the wider range of attacks and techniques you can use to give your picking more dynamics.

You know, I think I just realised something. I have a feeling, I learnt all this the wrong way. I grew up thinking that the best way to get tone was to have everything full on. Full distortion, full volume. Full intensity in picking.

Could that be a reason why I can't seem to get what I'm aiming for?

[Plugger]

Could that be a reason why I can't seem to get what I'm aiming for?

Yes.

-Mark

[Gravity Jim]

Could that be a reason why I can't seem to get what I'm aiming for?

Again: yes.

-Jim

[Rickenjangle]

You know, I think I just realised something. I have a feeling, I learnt all this the wrong way. I grew up thinking that the best way to get tone was to have everything full on. Full distortion, full volume. Full intensity in picking.

Could that be a reason why I can't seem to get what I'm aiming for?

Demio, don't feel bad. I learned to play too hard, with a very heavy touch on both hands. I try to get tone out of the guitar by "wringing its neck" so to speak. Sure, it works for blues, but it works against speed, and articulation, and the ability to get different timbres.

I really, really want to play more like two of my faves: Brian Setzer and Mark Knopfler...and neither of them are anywhere near being in my grasp... but both share some common characteristics, no matter what the picking style - they know where to pick, how hard, and what angle to use (of course Mark uses his fingers). But the other side of that coin is their harmonic knowledge - and that can be learned and applied.

Anyway, just another fellow traveller on the road to...somewhere!

[clayville]

Playing cleaner -- with far less grunge, distortion, gain, growl -- is the first step toward seeing just how far these techniques can take you.

In the first phase of my playing, as a younger man, I just loved wallowing in the noise and growl... and the covered up a lot of my sloppiness. Hid it, even from me. Playing generally cleaner, for a while at least, opened my eyes/ears and exposed a lot of hidden 'flaws' in my playing for me. In other words, it was a big help and a good kick in the pants. When you're 'flying without a net' you don't have much choice but to work on these things. If you keep at it, some of it will come.

'Course... now I lean on Delay too much... but you see what I'm saying.

[demioblue]

and the covered up a lot of my sloppiness. Hid it, even from me. Playing generally cleaner, for a while at least, opened my eyes/ears and exposed a lot of hidden 'flaws' in my playing for me.

Clay, GJ, Plugger, thanks. I knew I was on to something. Even the way to properly set up a gain chain was wrong for me. I always thought to leave the amp on clean, and let the pedal do the work. I'm starting to learn how to use 2 cascading gain pedals (one overdrive as a solo booster and one distortion as a crunch box). But I'm still pretty clueless to how this should be done properly. I bought a book on this, but it's not shedding much light, especially when it comes to using the amp's gain stage as well. Any tips?

Clay, I went through the same thing. I'm now realising this and trying to develop a better technique to improve my playing. That's why these questions are raised. Honestly, without the Jamzone, I'd still be clueless. Heh...

[demioblue]

A sweet compressor works wonders in elicross' scenario. You can change the tibre without spiking the volume.

I have NO clue how to use a compressor, and therefore, have never touched one. I tried it in the past on a multi-efx, and found that it kills my tone. Again, I'm sure I got it wrong...

[Mesotech]

One school of thought on how to properly use gain is:

1. Turn the volume of the guitar halfway up (or down), I typically try to go even lower than half.

2. Turn up the volume of a tube amp until moderate to heavy strumming of the top two strings open results in a slight breakup. (more often than not, you'll now learn that your amp is too large - then the quest for smaller amps begins)

3. Adjust tone controls and reverb of the amp (if applicable) to taste.

4. Next, play some open chords softly and they should be clean, strum harder and they should begin to crunch. Rock the volume up slightly and you have some serious grit, roll it all the way up for some serious overdrive and a nice "lead boost".

With the proper sized tube amp, you now have all the advantages of channel switching, clean boost, overdrive, and distortion all at your fingertips with the volume control of the guitar. Use the tone control in combination with full volume to get the "big muff" or "Ratt" sounds.

Once you hear this in action, you'll begin to realize that all those distortion effects pedals were built to try an approximate the sounds of a small tube amp cranked. In other words, they're used to emulate those sounds when you get to a gig and realize that you've brought too big of an amp for the task and there's no time to run home and get another.

Most amp modelers can not simulate this guitar/amp interaction, even though they can sucessfully model the "sound" of a Marshall Plexi clean on one setting, and a Marshall Plexi distorted on another channel (substitute your favorite amp for Marshall). There are no "tween" settings. The Line6 Pod series does a really good job, and the J-Station (discontinued) does a really good job, so do some Vox's. Digitech's don't (IMHO), neither do Behringer's, nor Boss, or an assorted array of others.

[melody]

One school of thought on how to properly use gain is:

1. Turn the volume of the guitar halfway up (or down), I typically try to go even lower than half.

2. Turn up the volume of a tube amp until moderate to heavy strumming of the top two strings open results in a slight breakup. (more often than not, you'll now learn that your amp is too large - then the quest for smaller amps begins)

3. Adjust tone controls and reverb of the amp (if applicable) to taste.

4. Next, play some open chords softly and they should be clean, strum harder and they should begin to crunch. Rock the volume up slightly and you have some serious grit, roll it all the way up for some serious overdrive and a nice "lead boost".

With the proper sized tube amp, you now have all the advantages of channel switching, clean boost, overdrive, and distortion all at your fingertips with the volume control of the guitar. Use the tone control in combination with full volume to get the "big muff" or "Ratt" sounds.

Once you hear this in action, you'll begin to realize that all those distortion effects pedals were built to try an approximate the sounds of a small tube amp cranked. In other words, they're used to emulate those sounds when you get to a gig and realize that you've brought too big of an amp for the task and there's no time to run home and get another.

Most amp modelers can not simulate this guitar/amp interaction, even though they can sucessfully model the "sound" of a Marshall Plexi clean on one setting, and a Marshall Plexi distorted on another channel (substitute your favorite amp for Marshall). There are no "tween" settings. The Line6 Pod series does a really good job, and the J-Station (discontinued) does a really good job, so do some Vox's. Digitech's don't (IMHO), neither do Behringer's, nor Boss, or an assorted array of others.

[demioblue]

One school of thought on how to properly use gain is:

1. Turn the volume of the guitar halfway up (or down), I typically try to go even lower than half.

2. Turn up the volume of a tube amp until moderate to heavy strumming of the top two strings open results in a slight breakup. (more often than not, you'll now learn that your amp is too large - then the quest for smaller amps begins)

3. Adjust tone controls and reverb of the amp (if applicable) to taste.

4. Next, play some open chords softly and they should be clean, strum harder and they should begin to crunch. Rock the volume up slightly and you have some serious grit, roll it all the way up for some serious overdrive and a nice "lead boost".

With the proper sized tube amp, you now have all the advantages of channel switching, clean boost, overdrive, and distortion all at your fingertips with the volume control of the guitar. Use the tone control in combination with full volume to get the "big muff" or "Ratt" sounds.

Once you hear this in action, you'll begin to realize that all those distortion effects pedals were built to try an approximate the sounds of a small tube amp cranked. In other words, they're used to emulate those sounds when you get to a gig and realize that you've brought too big of an amp for the task and there's no time to run home and get another.

Most amp modelers can not simulate this guitar/amp interaction, even though they can sucessfully model the "sound" of a Marshall Plexi clean on one setting, and a Marshall Plexi distorted on another channel (substitute your favorite amp for Marshall). There are no "tween" settings. The Line6 Pod series does a really good job, and the J-Station (discontinued) does a really good job, so do some Vox's. Digitech's don't (IMHO), neither do Behringer's, nor Boss, or an assorted array of others.

THANK YOU!!!!!

[elicross]

Yeah. That was a good post!

[stratcat62]

Interesting post. FWIW, I endorse Fez and Mesotech. Many years ago I started fooling with pedals and discovered I wasn't really playing the guitar. I took a 10 year stint of plugging directly in to the amp. It is an eye opener as to just how important the rt hand truly is. Just to add a note to Mesotech's comment, you can get some very good effects by manipulating the volume and tone control on a guitar. Don't believe me, listen to early Roy Buchannen.

[pseudocat]

I wouldn't claim to be as skilled as refin, but something that has helped me tremendously with improving my picking dynamics is to alternate practice sessions plugged in and unplugged.

Learning how the guitar responds as a resonant entity independent of amplification and effects has been invaluable. As I've progressed, my effects have become like subtle spices I can toss in here and there. I tend to use them sparingly.

[refin]

WOW..............how long has this thread been going?

You cannot imagine the surprise and humbling that I feel reading this with my morning joe.The irony is that I feel so often like Freddy Fumblefingers when I play---my "style" (if that's what you want to call it) is a series of hits and misses,with alot of hammer ons,pulloffs,and multi-takes (cut and paste)! I do use a J-Station most of the time,but I'm trying to properly mic some of my old amps.
I was blessed to have a few friends back in the '70s who were really good blues players,and we would quite often listen to records for a few hours.They would hear a lick and go "Wow,did you hear those dynamics? What a touch!" They would wince (in a good way) when a subtle phrase was played,that I might not have noticed....I guess they schooled me in subtleties like phrasing,vibrato,space,dynamic,and they were way ahead of me.My goal now is to try and put some of those things in practice on a regular basis.When they played,I got to hear and see these things right in front of me!
My picking technique is really awful,not at all proper or consistent.I'm trying to learn the right way,but I have too many bad habits---this has made learning things by other players with proper technique difficult,especially if every note is picked.So many of you here have it right,and with great chops!
This has been a humbling read,and I give God the glory for anything I have that has touched someone else's life musically....thanks everyone for your kindness.

[Guitar_Mc]

Refin,

don't fix those bad habbits!

GMc

[elicross]

Seriously. If it ain't broke...

[refin]

I REALLY don't get it.........thank you for the encouragement.

[cooltone]

I took lessons from a guy back in the '70's, who'd been a student (directly or indirectly) of the Jazz great, Joe Pass. I was just a 14 year old who wanted to learn rock licks. He had a hard time simplifying stuff enough for me to 'get it'. I never really did

I asked him once "what one thing can I do in order to be a successful player?"

He said "Stay Humble".

even refin's humbleness is humbling.

[Mesotech]

Refin, there are several key elements to your playing that are quite difficult to master. Many of them can be learned and practiced to perfection, some of them can't be - either you have it or you don't.

You do.

There's been much 'to do' about your picking technique, but what I hear from your playing goes much deeper than that alone. You have a keen sense of melody that is difficult for most to create. You play guitar like many people play piano. Meaning, when you play, you're not simply picking notes out of a canned scale pattern, but instead are playing a musical progression of notes that enhances and compliments the melody carried within. The dynamics accent the melody notes, and keep the supporting notes subdued. The phrasing compliments the piece by not rushing anything (even though you have great speed skills). When you use speed, you're not doing it to demonstrate that you 'can', you are using it to get from one place to the next. All of that is tough to do, but it can be learned and practiced to perfection.

What can't be practiced to perfection is your sense of emotion in your playing. It is something that is felt rather than heard. I have taken some of your solos apart note by note to try and grasp what it is you're doing, and even if I can play it note for note it never sounds the same as when you play it. Most times, I can't even play it.

Likewise with your sense of passion. Perhaps passion falls into the same category as emotion, but they mean different things to me. Emotion is the way you play something, the feel of the music, while passion is your love for what you're playing, what you - the artist - are feeling. When I listen to your recordings, I can tell that you love what you're doing, or you wouldn't be doing it.

Above all else, is what happens when other people listen to your playing. THEY feel good about what you've played. For me, whenever I see that you've recorded something new, I get the same feelings inside of me as when I'm standing in line for a rollercoaster ride. A sense of anxiety for what is about to come, a burning desire for it to hurry up and download so I can listen (even my 6MB/sec cable modem isn't fast enough to get the song for me). Then, as on a rollercoaster, your string of notes are like riding to the top then racing down the other side ready to climb the next hill. When it's all over, I can't wait to do it all over again, and again, and again. And that's not just me. I've played several of your recordings for other people to listen to (musicians and non-musicians) and they express the same sensations to me about what they just heard. I have yet to find someone say "eh, it was OK, but not really great". Every single one of them has been amazed and thrilled to have enjoyed the song.

I say keep doing what works. Keep working on getting better at it too. To repeat what has become a common phrase around here, it's not a race to the finish, it's a journey. Some people are just farther along the path than others. You're way on up the road from most of us, but we're on our way.

[demioblue]

Refin, there are several key elements to your playing that are quite difficult to master. Many of them can be learned and practiced to perfection, some of them can't be - either you have it or you don't.

You do.

There's been much 'to do' about your picking technique, but what I hear from your playing goes much deeper than that alone. You have a keen sense of melody that is difficult for most to create. You play guitar like many people play piano. Meaning, when you play, you're not simply picking notes out of a canned scale pattern, but instead are playing a musical progression of notes that enhances and compliments the melody carried within. The dynamics accent the melody notes, and keep the supporting notes subdued. The phrasing compliments the piece by not rushing anything (even though you have great speed skills). When you use speed, you're not doing it to demonstrate that you 'can', you are using it to get from one place to the next. All of that is tough to do, but it can be learned and practiced to perfection.

What can't be practiced to perfection is your sense of emotion in your playing. It is something that is felt rather than heard. I have taken some of your solos apart note by note to try and grasp what it is you're doing, and even if I can play it note for note it never sounds the same as when you play it. Most times, I can't even play it.

Likewise with your sense of passion. Perhaps passion falls into the same category as emotion, but they mean different things to me. Emotion is the way you play something, the feel of the music, while passion is your love for what you're playing, what you - the artist - are feeling. When I listen to your recordings, I can tell that you love what you're doing, or you wouldn't be doing it.

Above all else, is what happens when other people listen to your playing. THEY feel good about what you've played. For me, whenever I see that you've recorded something new, I get the same feelings inside of me as when I'm standing in line for a rollercoaster ride. A sense of anxiety for what is about to come, a burning desire for it to hurry up and download so I can listen (even my 6MB/sec cable modem isn't fast enough to get the song for me). Then, as on a rollercoaster, your string of notes are like riding to the top then racing down the other side ready to climb the next hill. When it's all over, I can't wait to do it all over again, and again, and again. And that's not just me. I've played several of your recordings for other people to listen to (musicians and non-musicians) and they express the same sensations to me about what they just heard. I have yet to find someone say "eh, it was OK, but not really great". Every single one of them has been amazed and thrilled to have enjoyed the song.

I say keep doing what works. Keep working on getting better at it too. To repeat what has become a common phrase around here, it's not a race to the finish, it's a journey. Some people are just farther along the path than others. You're way on up the road from most of us, but we're on our way.

+1,000,000!!!!!

[demioblue]

WOW..............how long has this thread been going?

You cannot imagine the surprise and humbling that I feel reading this with my morning joe.The irony is that I feel so often like Freddy Fumblefingers when I play---my "style" (if that's what you want to call it) is a series of hits and misses,with alot of hammer ons,pulloffs,and multi-takes (cut and paste)! I do use a J-Station most of the time,but I'm trying to properly mic some of my old amps.
I was blessed to have a few friends back in the '70s who were really good blues players,and we would quite often listen to records for a few hours.They would hear a lick and go "Wow,did you hear those dynamics? What a touch!" They would wince (in a good way) when a subtle phrase was played,that I might not have noticed....I guess they schooled me in subtleties like phrasing, vibrato, space, dynamic, and they were way ahead of me. My goal now is to try and put some of those things in practice on a regular basis. When they played, I got to hear and see these things right in front of me!
My picking technique is really awful, not at all proper or consistent.I'm trying to learn the right way,but I have too many bad habits---this has made learning things by other players with proper technique difficult,especially if every note is picked.So many of you here have it right,and with great chops!

So what you're saying is that your picking hand gets a bit lazy sometimes, and your left hand compensates with hammer-ons and pull-offs and this results in those dynamics? Hey! I've got a lazy picking hand too! but that only results in me missing notes!

It actually makes me feel a bit better to know that what you do isn't entirely conscious... which actually sounds like there's still a bit of hope for me... Then again, it's even worse to know that so much of it comes from within, which means, if I don't got it, it can't be learned...

Actually, the thing that gets me most about your playing are 2 main elements.

1. The phrasing is very good, but I think that's mostly subjective to the player. Different players will have different ways of saying things, and they'll be different, but usually are good to hear. You on the other hand seem to be able to tell a story. That's a whole level above the rest.

2. The picking textures are so varied. This is the bit I'm trying to learn from your playing, amongst other guitarists. And this one isn't subjective. It makes the difference between something good, and something great. EC once said that his goal in recordings was to play something that you wouldn't mind listening to 10 years later. This is pretty much what he was talking about, because picking dynamics makes the lick endure multiple listens. a straight picker would just have one volume level (like me) and after a while, you get bored with his playing. But a varied picker would colour the tones differently each time. That's what you have.

Thanks for "teaching" this new dimension of playing to me through your playing.