Band logic

[Plugger]

Reading about Flintpunk's band personnel challenges reminded me of a story I heard recently about a local band that fired their bass player because of a difference in opinions in the material they should cover. The bass player was leaning towards some more classic material, but the rhythm guitarist and drummer wanted only newer stuff. The lead guitarist had the casting vote, and they voted the bass player out.

Except... the bass player was also their singer! They had just fired their frontman, not even because of personality differences (there was no real animosity, apparently, and surprisingly they are all still good friends), but because of _artistic differences_.

The outcome of all this was the bass player/singer fairly quickly put a new band together and is playing. The band he was fired from hasn't played a gig since.

Band logic!

What are your stories?

-Mark

[JJ Gross]

"Band" and "Logic" in the same sentence.











Sorry ... I just can't wrap my head around that one.

[boobtube21]

Last band I was in:

My friend the drummer finds a reggae/rock type band in the Recycler. Once they take him in, the guitar player quits: the old drummer was his best friend. So, my drummer friend brings me on board as the guitar player. We were a kick ass combo, the bass/drums/guitar side of things was unbelieveably tight.

My friend was actually a really good drummer. Problem was, he didn't have a job, consequently, no money. I had to pick him up, drop him off home for every practice, because the other two guys lived on the other side of the county. Never offered me any gas money. He actually made the both of us late to soundcheck once at the Coach House because he insisted on going home and doing his hair. Seriously.

Then his drums flew out of the back of the bass player's pickup on the way to a gig. If he had been transporting them in his own car using the cases that wouldn't have happened, but again, no job, no money, can't put gas in his own car. Don't think we never talked to him about this, or rubbed it in after he lost his kit, we sure as hell did.

There was other stuff too, and at one point the three of us (bass, singer and myself) decided to get rid of him. The guy who got me in the band, my friend, and I was firing him! I just couldn't take it anymore though.

We tried out 2 other drummers after he left, but I think we all ultimately realized that we were falling apart anyway because of other things, and this was sort of the catalyst for our demise. I left, and that was it.

Classic band drama there.

[flintpunk]

MAN, that sounds just like another band I was in! I wonder if he was ever my drummer! Well, I'm starting to feel better! Keep the stories coming though...they are entertaining!

[Offshore Angler]

So, let me understand. You hired a drummer knowing he had no money and no transportation, and then fired him because he couldn't pay for gas and always needed a ride? And you "rubbed it in" after the poor dude lost his kit?



WTF?!

[LoveBandit]

I'm in the middle of a little band drama myself although we are just a garage/party type of band, not play for pay pros yet. I just CANNOT STAND the drummer's entire personality. He is very rude, arrogant and conceited and it brings me down every practice. To top it off, he is consistently TOO loud for the room also. The others say the same thing when he is not around but they seem to be a little intimidated by his bluster.

The basement where we practice is owned by the bass player who also owns the PA and drumkit (which both stay put in that basement) and the drummer that I cannot stand does all kind of home improvement "favors" for the homeowner like put in a window or a door or some drywall work. So the band "leader" (homeowner) feels pretty much indebted to this guy and doesn't want to get rid of him no matter how big a jerk he acts like.

This evening I am planning to go over to the "leader's" house and basically say "Look, I cannot control who you have over to your house and in your band but I CAN control who I hang out with every week. I'm afraid I won't be practicing/playing with you guys as long as that guy is around....sorry." I'm sure that will go over like a "fart in a diving helmet" but I am at my wit's end with the drummer.

Too bad that personalities play such a large role in bands but face it, they do....

LB.

[rudutch]

It's all a matter of expectations

[flintpunk]

It's all about ratios... the ratio of your current disdain for the situation over your personal ability to tolerate. When the ratio is greater than one, it's time to do something.

In my situation, there have been a lot of little things that bothered me from the time this band started playing together (in the early summer) to the point we are now (gigging, having fun and making some $$$). I've said it before that being in a band is like having several wives. With a wife, you let a lot of stuff slide because you care about her and the family. Same with a band. If you care about the end result enough, you'll let a lot of little BS go. The longer you can deal with the little stuff, the easier it gets to tolerate. If it's just little stuff, keep telling yourself "It's like water off a duck's back, I'm letting it go!" It's your choice then. On the other hand if the issue is a deal breaker for you and your ratio gets higher than one, you need to address the situation.

[boobtube21]

So, let me understand. You hired a drummer knowing he had no money and no transportation, and then fired him because he couldn't pay for gas and always needed a ride? And you "rubbed it in" after the poor dude lost his kit?



WTF?!

No no no...

THEY hired him, then their guitar player quit. THEY then hired me.

I'm sure anyone who's had a friend with no job can dig where we were coming from. He had numerous offers from friends to come work for the co.'s they worked for, but he always found something wrong with the offer. Basically, he was lazy, and convinced that a major label record deal was always right around the corner. Must've never heard me the million times I said I wouldn't sign one.

And rubbing it in was an overstatement... But believe me, there were many arguments about putting his drums in cases prior. Sure, they took up more room, but if he had a job and could put gas in his '67 Galaxie, they fit in the trunk and back seat just fine.

Instead, he insisted on leaving the toms mounted on the bass drum, and throwing the whole thing half assed in the back of the bass player's pickup. He was amply warned that this couldn't be the safest arrangement, but he assured us he "did it all the time". Then he didn't want to play the gig when we got there because he was "heartbroken" or something like that. What about the guy on the 55 freeway who probably got a bass drum in the windshield of his car, all because you were too lazy to properly load your own equipment???

We made sure to remind him of this and the reasons for his loss every time he complained about it like, "Why did this happen to me?"

There were other differences that led to his dismissal, but that was the event that truly showed what a dumbass he was. I know that may sound callous, but we were all sympathetic and I still am. It's just that it wasn't due to some twist of fate or act of God. It was directly related to his main problem: Laziness, thus no job or money. And not much sense either.

In the end it did make me feel bad: my friend brings me into his new band, then I help get rid of him. But at the time it seemed like the solution to kind of a big problem. After we broke up the bass player and I were talking about how we might have made a mistake, but given all the other bullshit that I'm not gonna get into, that band was headed for disaster anyway.

And so it goes...

[LoveBandit]

If anyone cares I was talked out of quitting....the leader agreed to ask the drummer to tone it down a good bit and he also bought an Edirol R9 to tape us from the audience perspective to better gauge our relative volumes to prove to the drummer how loud he is. Of course this does nothing to make the drummer less of an a-hole. The problem is, I tend to be TOO easy going as someone gradually gets my goat and then I snap and get tempted to just chuck him into the drum kit. Of course that won't solve anything but get me arrested....oh well, I guess I gotta just cool out and see how it progresses Thursday evening...... LB.

[dirtdog]

This evening I am planning to go over to the "leader's" house and basically say "Look, I cannot control who you have over to your house and in your band but I CAN control who I hang out with every week. I'm afraid I won't be practicing/playing with you guys as long as that guy is around....sorry." I'm sure that will go over like a "fart in a diving helmet" but I am at my wit's end with the drummer.

I had to do the same thing a year and a half ago. Bunch of us from work put together a garage rock band and started gigging. We went through a couple of different singers. Brought in a guy who could nail Plant and Bon Scott, but had the personality of a doorjamb. He was an HVAC guy, so the favours to the homeowner abounded. It got to the point, I couldn't be in the room with him. He was a guitar hack, but he was grabbing my guitar attempting to show me how to play a riff, or how I should detune/retune my guitar to fit a key he could sing in. I held my ground and ultimately created a huge animosity. One day, he quit out of the blue and I was so relieved. I took a stab at singing for a few weeks, when this guy weaseled his way back into the band. I had it, I quit. I am still good buddies with the other guys and I felt like a heel for letting them down, but I just politely said, if Rob's around, I think it's time for you guys to find another guitarist. So I left. A couple of months later, Rob quit for good and they brought in a good buddy of mine to sing. However, they already brought in a new guitar player to fill my spot.

I don't regret making the decision that I did, and I continue to be good buddies with those guys and often go check out their gigs.

Oh, and BTW, this was a side project for me, I had two other gigging bands on the go at the time.

Dat's life!

DD

[Rickenjangle]

I once joined an existing band as rhythm guitar and backing vocals, and things were going fine - they were talking about adding some songs featuring me on lead vocal. The drummer's wife was the booking agent and booked us for free.

To make a long story short, the drummer and his wife started having problems, and then in a fit of pique she demanded a full share of whatever we made. Well, splitting the money 6 ways was too much for 3 of the other 5 band members, so I ended up getting the shaft...

In retrospect it was good. I decided that I wasn't going to be a sideman anymore; plus it forced me to go out alone and build my confidence in my singing ability. And, I might never have met Mikey or OSA or the other guys.

Plus, I hated the lead guitar player... but boy was I pissed at the time!

JB

[chuckocaster]

i used to have a drummer i used to play with, and we used to be friends. he always had differing views from everyone else.

the final straw of me even talking to him was the day he came off the drum set and wanted to get into it with me in the rehersal space.

i had a really bad earache that day and had talked to everyone when i saw them at school if maybe we could tone it down at practice so as not to blow out my ears, everyone was cool. i wasn't able to talk to "brad" prior to practice. i did take him aside and talk to him, but he wasn't too receptive. so in classic fashion he just starts wailing on the drums, i turned around and asked him again if we could just tone it down, "sorry dude, this is how loud i play. either turn up if you can't hear yourself, or stop complaining..." was his response. so i took my halfstack, flipped it point right at him from about 3 feet away and rolled all the knobs all the way up, all distortion and boost pedals on and went for it.

that was it, he came barreling off the kit and started coming at me. normal "i'm going to kick your ass MF!"

i simply told him "you better hit me as hard as you can, cause you're going to be hurting real bad."

luckily the rest of the band intervened.

not saying i was right, or he was. but everyone should be very aware of who they're playing with. "brad" always bugged me with his demeanor, i should probably have taken another approach. alas, i chose my path and had to walk it.

[boobtube21]

LOL Chuck your story reminds me of another drummer I used to play with back in the high school days.

I'd always tell him to be quiet when I was trying to tune (I used to tune by ear back in the day) and to try and be funny he would of course start banging on his drums. Well, one day as we were warming up for a gig, he did it again, I decided I'd had it and told him to "shut the fuck up"

We exchanged a few more words, and he came at me from behind his kit. I was playing with a penny 'cause I couldn't find a pick, and I flicked it at him and it hit him in the tooth. Then he got really pissed and we pretty much went full-on WWF on the studio floor. The bass player and rhythm guitarist broke it up, I went in the other room, and 15 minutes later we were over it.

Good luck with your gig tomorrow night LB. It's definitely best to nip problems in the bud...it doesn't always solve them, but it does help keep the explosive confrontations to a minimum.

Then again, they say tension between band members is good for creativity...

[chuckocaster]

LOL!

[Vics]

The last time I tried to do a "band thing" so to say was a complete disaster. I've been doing some writing with and old band mate of mine and we thought it would be cool to get together with our old drummer. Bad move.

I don't know who pissed in his coffee but man, what an arrogant, game playing control freak he turned out to be. We gave him a tape of what we were doing about two weeks before we got together with him and even though he really didn't listen to it he insisted on wanting to re-arrange everything. Even had a guitar playing friend of his over "to help us" and he was just as bad. Had the same mind set as the drummer. So here the two of them are trying to re-arrange our songs.....and they can't even play them!! They don't even know the changes or what the songs are about and and they're trying to re-arrange things. (WTF?!?!?!) Excuse me, but how can you have a go at trying to re-arrange a song that you can't even play thru?

I don't know about you folks, but I'm from the school of letting ideas evolve. I play it and play it and play it....and in the course of playing a song over and over new ideas come about. I suggested that and the drummer would have none of that. I and my writing buddy gave up as we both agreed that the drummer a complete control freak who made no sense what so ever.

[stonetone]

So much drummer hate...

But I can dig it. This is why I'm getting into bluegrass.

[Fripperton]

Back in the days when I played in bands with vocals we had a lead singer who decided he was going to move on. Everything was amicable. He had moved away from home to join the band and now wanted to move back and start another band there. So we audition replacements and find a guy with a voice that is acceptable to everyone. We invite him to come to a few gigs so he can see us in action. At one of the gigs he's learned about 12 songs out of our setlist so we ask him to come up and perform with us as a way of getting him used to us onstage. The original lead singer felt this was an insult to him so he split during the 2nd set because "we had tried to embarrass him." This left us with 2 hours to fill and a lead singer who only knew the material we had already performed with him. It made for a long night of extended solos and "Requests " for songs we had already performed.

[Notyethendrix]

Find a band that loves you

[NeoFauve]

No fisticuffs, but playing with a few different singer-songwriters (sometimes one at a time, sometimes in a wierd quasi-supergroup) was pretty eye opening at times.
I'd play with any one of them and was pretty much neutral, a one man UN with a guitar. After a while they'd open up or confide. It got pretty uncomfortable.

These were people handy with words, big into pouring out their feelings and whatnot. Considering the kumbaya vibe of the whole 90's new-folk scene in general (as seen from the outside anyway), the psychological warfare and verbal barbs could get really... acidic?, toxic? It was brutal.

You might assume that writing and singing would get a lot of stuff out of their systems. But maybe it functioned more as practice for the more REAL self-expression.

Yeesh.

[Gravity Jim]

After a while they'd open up or confide... These were people handy with words, big into pouring out their feelings and whatnot. ... Yeesh.

Bill, I hear you... you and I talked about my new gigging partnership, so you know that I have a phobia of some similar things going on.

Our first rehearsal indicates that we're both big kids and we can play nice together... but once you get to know somebody and you're having one of those alcohol-enhanced stripped-soul gig postmortems, all bets are off.

[boobtube21]

Find a band that has adults in it that know how to play as an ensemble. Then the band is the star, not just one member.

Amen!

Why are people who understand this (and can actually play, and want to play the same stuff as you) so difficult to find?

I'm probably going to jam with a couple of guys this weekend that I jammed with once last year. They apparently have a full band going now, with a gig on the 10th somewhere in L.A. By their response to my contacting them I might already be in! They're both in their early 30's and seem pretty laid back, no intentions of "taking over the world" so I'll think we'll get along just fine, lol.

[Offshore Angler]

Man, reading this thread just reinforces how lucky I am with Crossfyre. We work together to help each other rather than fight with each other.

[Rickenjangle]

Yup. Chuck's right. I went home the other night after practice, and my girlfriend remarked that I was in a good mood. Well, we worked on 3 new songs, which is usually the more difficult times - but it came together nicely and we all had a good time collaborating. I can only remember one time in the past being frustrated - and it probably had more to do with my own steenkin' baggage than anything else. Great bunch of dumbass geezers!

[frank thomson]

when in my 20's, we fired a dood b/c he was 32.

nothin personal, it's only business.

[Fripperton]

I'm very lucky with my current band in that there's no drama other than working around our (their) "grownup" jobs. I attribute it to the fact that we don't have vocals and all the attendant problems that are associated with vocalists.

[Rickenjangle]

I don't like Jimmy very much, Fezz...
I happen to think that I am a very well-adjusted person, for a lead vocalist. I don't have LSS (Lead Singer Syndrome) do I guys? Guys? Guys? C'mon! 's

Here's a favorite video of mine... http://www.sermonspice.com/videos/592/its-all-about-me/

[Wilko]

To avoid proximity effect, one has to carry a shield in the form of a musical instrument (no. Marachas, tamborines, etc. don't count). Playing a guitar is good.

In the case of no instrument, hauling the PA can help.

[Joobsauce]

Thank god I'm not in a band right now. I try to get to be "good" freinds with anyone who I want to jam with or all hell breaks loose. :)

[Wilko]

A keyboard can also reduce the effect, but there are cases where it amplifies the effect (see Dennis DeYoung and Roger Hodgson).

Oh yes. When the Keyboard is configured to resemble a guitar al la "Keytar" the effect is unbearable.

At that point the band needs a GFI (Group Fault Interrupt)

[Mesotech]

Drummer/singers are actually a bit of a quandry. While the drums themselves act as a buffer against proximity effect, the effect can be a magnitude greater than for others due to the number of mics in close proximity. Some drummers try to counter the effect by adding more and more drums to their kits, but in the end, only wind up with even more mics. Eventually they can get sucked into this black hole of proximity effect to the point where people can hear them singing, but can't see them playing.

After that, there's only one way to go. They will put furry stuffed animals on their kits and encapsulate them in rotating cages to be hovered above the stage and swung upside down so people can see them.

[Rickenjangle]

To avoid proximity effect, one has to carry a shield in the form of a musical instrument (no. Marachas, tamborines, etc. don't count). Playing a guitar is good.

In the case of no instrument, hauling the PA can help.

Ah, that must be it. I play guitar, bass, a bit of keys and drums, harmonica...plus I definitely help out with PA setup and teardown.

Everyone knows you can't carry PA and lights around with a swollen head...

[NeoFauve]

Sometimes singing drummers are in the proximity of several mics.

How does that ratio work?

Is it anything like watts and decibels?

[Wilko]

Of course there are always exceptions.

Good singing drummer syndrome= Levon Helm.

Bad singing drummer syndrome = Phil Collins