tubes vs solid state - the real difference

[Tonefreak]

Originally posted by NeoFauve
Suppose nobody ever told any of us what kind of gear Eric So&so or whoever used. What if all that happened was- you hear the music? End of story.
How could anyone decide if they sound good, or if they should keep playing, or share their music with anyone?

I knew when I was 14 years old that "Crossroads" by this band called Cream?? sounded awesome. I knew that I also liked Creedence and the Beatles, but the the amps sounded different. The John Fogerty stuff was somewhat brittle ( live especially) and not warm and inviting to the ears. It was different music to be quite sure, but I heard the amps!! I didn't know what amps they played through. I just heard it.

[daddyo]

Originally posted by Mikey
Seems like everyone is chasing down "that" sound. It was originally created on tube amps so everybody looks for tube amp sounds. What would happen if a totally "new" type of music (don't know what it'd be) came along like Rock & Roll came along. Only thing is, the basis for the sound came from SS amps. Would everybody be chasing down that "SS Sound" ? Just thinkin' out loud.

Maybe - for a little while. But tubes do sound better to a very vast majority of players. I think it is beyond subjectivity. The proof is that no SS amp manufacturer comes out with a unique SS tone. They all imitate the real thing. How may original SS sounds are out there? JC 120, Polybrute. Both clean jazz amps attempting to be as transparent as possibe. SS amp exist for one reason - they are cheaper to manufacture.

[zenpeace69]

Originally posted by Algernon


When operated in a linear (or unclipped) mode, Murphy explained, tube amps sound the same as their solid-state counterparts, provided that their frequency response and group delay characteristics are well matched and their distortion levels are sufficiently low. The audible difference between tube and solid-state amps emerges only when they are clipped. "Then it becomes easy to hear the difference between typical tube and solid-state amps. It is also easy to see the difference on an oscilloscope trace," he said.

I stopped reading right here because I think it is a really dopey statement. If I am understanding him correctly, he is saying that clean tones cannot be discerned between tube or SS. Only when an tube is overdriven can you hear a difference between an SS circuit and a tube.

Is that what he is saying? If so, I completely disagree.

[daddyo]

As always, the proof is in the pudding. People aren't stupid. They buy tube amps because they sound better. People buy SS amps because they are cheaper (acoustical players and some jazz guys being an exception). The only noteworthy tone that can be attributed to an SS amp is Albert King. How he every got that awesome tone out of those amps is a testament to the man's awesome mojo.

[curtisstetka]

I agree. People wouldn't use tube amps unless there was something there, right? I mean, the technology is old. SS amps are more reliable, cheaper, and so on. But it's the sound we're talking about.

That said, I think a lot of "magic" "mojo" "juju" and so one has been ascribed to tube amps just because what happens in a tube is difficult to describe. There's lots of hype out there.

But to say there's no difference between SS and tube except when they clip is just silly. If my ears can hear it, the difference must be profound.

[fezz parka]

OK. For the sake of the disscussion (and a little shameless self promotion), listen to these clips Which do you think are tube amps and which are a solidstate device?

If you can tell (it's no fair if you already know what I use), I'll eat my shoe.

[Sven]

OK, I'll stick my neck out....

I thought the first two were SS and the last 3 were tube.



Although, they may have all been SS.



What'd I win? :wail2




It better be good.






Tele-Bob sent me a cool motorcycle magazine coffee cup!

[fezz parka]

I thought the first two were SS and the last 3 were tube.

You are 2 out of 5. I won't say which two until the end of the game. You win the following:

The soundtrack to "Bring Me The Head Of Alfredo Garcia" by Jerry Fielding.



Send me your shipping address and I'll drop it in the mail.

cneelREMOVETHIS@mgm.com

[mgade]

Originally posted by fezz parka
OK. For the sake of the disscussion (and a little shameless self promotion), listen to these clips Which do you think are tube amps and which are a solidstate device?

I have been waiting for this, leave it open for a few days! Havn't got time yet, but will hate to know beforehand. Don't tell any more! THIS IS FUNNY!


Go guys'n'dolls, try to figure which guitars, effects and stuff (amps of course). And don't peek! Eh.. fezz, is it the same guit on all tracks? Never mind, I'l try to listen my way through it!

[fezz parka]

Originally posted by mgade
Eh.. fezz, is it the same guit on all tracks?

It's Teles, ASAT, Strat, X155 archtop...and that's all I'll say 'til the end of the game!

[Dangerine49]

I'll give it a try:

MB Jam: SS
Swamp: Tube
TFF3: Tube
Shufflin': SS
TFF5: (kept waffling on this one,but..) SS

Nice playing, BTW

[Sven]

Fezz,
You're kidding, right?
Is that even a real email address?

[curtisstetka]

Originally posted by Sven
Fezz,
You're kidding, right?
Is that even a real email address?

I'll vouch for Fezz. I've communicated with him outside the board.

[Mikey]

OK, Fez,
tube
tube
SS
SS
tube

How'd I do?

[fezz parka]

As before I won't say which ones you guys got right until the end of the game.

Dangerine49 = 3 out of 5.

Mikey = 2 out of 5.

Sven = What the hell do you think REMOVETHIS means, ? Like I want email farming software sending Viagra spam and penis enlargement to my work addy! :tw59

Curtis you da man. :yay

[Mesotech]

They all sound SS to me.
Simulators make it very difficult to tell nowadays unless you're listening to it in person. That's when the tube amps really kick in because the SS sim's tend to lack the immediate punch, growl, or ability to feedback (musically).
________
Honda SL90 history

[fezz parka]

Ding Ding Ding! Mesotech wins! I guess I'll have to eat my shoe. (Sven had first, but because of the way he answered I had to go with his first response.)

Mesotech also wins this:



The score to the John Wayne film, "Brannigan" by Dominc Frontiere.

Send me an email with you address and I'll get it out to you.

The point of this exercise is that, even for the educated ear, it has become very hard to tell the recorded difference between tube and solid state modelling gear. In a live band situation it's a different story. This stuff is only getting better.

[curtisstetka]

DAMN IT!!!

I just downloaded the tracks!!

[fezz parka]

Sorry my man! Listen to 'em anyway and tell me what you think...

[curtisstetka]

Chris, my friend, you can PLAY

I love that first one - jamboogie. Dang, man! Sweet.

I'd never have guessed they were all SS either. You get a great tone out of whatever gear you're using. What is the gear, anyway?

[Dangerine49]

What kind of equipment did you use to record those fezz? I'm not totally surprised at the result though. I have a CyberTwin that I truly love, and I just smirk to myself when the tubistas bash modelling/SS "crap".

[fezz parka]

It's a Johnson J-Station. For recording I use Sony ACID and Vegas. Sometimes ProTools when I want to use Bomb Factory plugs, but I still move everything back into Vegas for mixing. I master the tracks in Wavelab using a lot of the Waves plugins.

[fezz parka]

Originally posted by curtisstetka
Chris, my friend, you can PLAY

Thanks Curtis! I've been doin' it a long time...

All of those tracks are from the Cyberjams we do over in the "Sound Check" section. MB's Jamboogie was created by buzztone, Swamp Thang, TFF 3 and 5 were created by GuitarG, and I created the Shufflin' Bee.

[curtisstetka]

Originally posted by Dangerine49
tubistas

HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

[Mesotech]

I just saw the Doobies live on Saturday night, and there wasn't an "amp" onstage. While everything still sounded good, I could tell there was something missing. It all seemed as if I were watching and listening to them on a very good DVD and big-screen TV. I'm sure a large part of the perception was also caused by me sitting/standing in the third row, and the PA speakers were over to the sides of me. The only sounds coming from the stage were the drums. When a lead guitar part came up, I couldn't "feel" the vibe. They also used what appeared to be PRS guitars, but later researched and found out at least one of the PRS type guitars was custom built. The guitars all sounded quite compressed and sterile compared to what a typical live setting would sound like. Yet overall, the quality of the tones were quite good. A non-musician wouldn't have been able to tell that something was not quite right.
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[Sven]

OK Fezz, I sent you an email.
Now you gotta tell us what your rig is. You got some really nice tones from it. :wail2

[fezz parka]

Originally posted by Sven
OK Fezz, I sent you an email.
Now you gotta tell us what your rig is. You got some really nice tones from it. :wail2

Mostly Teles into the J-Station (There's a Strat on TFF 5 and an archtop on Shufflin' Bee). For the amp models I tend to use the blackface and AC30 and mix up the cab sims. I don't use the digital out on the J Station, just the analog outs into the mixer then to the computer. (I seem to like noisey recordings.) That's about it!

[daddyo]

It is one thing listening to clips over the internet through our crappy PC sound systems. It is another recording albums or especially playing live. Heck, the Allman Bros sound SS when I listen to web clips. In person, the difference is very apparent. I'd take the test live, thankyou.

[fezz parka]

Originally posted by daddyo
It is one thing listening to clips over the internet through our crappy PC sound systems. It is another recording albums or especially playing live. Heck, the Allman Bros sound SS when I listen to web clips. In person, the difference is very apparent. I'd take the test live, thankyou.

Well good for you!

FWIW, not all of us have crappy PC sounds systems...

[Bolero]

I've heard a couple solid state amps that absolutely kick ass.




that said, all my amps are tube



anyone can argue the finer points, and there are exceptions....but generally, I think 90% of tube amps sound better than 90% of SS amps

[jz63]

After years of using a Music Man, Vox-AC30, and a Fender Deluxe Reverb I have finally settled on using an Award Session Sessionette 75LE as my gigging amp. It is a really cool amp that captures a good deal of tube mojo and is plenty loud. It does the job live, plus it can take all of the abuse that eventually happens to gear when it's in transport.

For me the trade off tone wise is worth the dependability of the amp. That said, I play in a trio and spend most of my time playing rythym guitar and need only a a few different sounds. The clean channel of this Sessionette is based on a AC30 right at the point of break-up which suits me to a T. If I need a little more dirt I just use a Rat. BTW, the distortion channel on the amp isn't too shabby either, it's just that it's based on the classic Fender sound and doesn't suit my stuff as well.

One of the best live tones I've ever heard was at a gig at Jack's Guitar Bar in Nashville back in the mid 1990's. A fella called Mark Winchester was playing with his trio and getting an almighty sound out of a Harmony Rocket and a Fender Sidekick 65!

[curtisstetka]

If I were constantly gigging, I'd get a good SS amp. It just seems so much more practical for the rigors of the road.

I recently got a totally kickass SFDR but I'm kind of missing my Roland Jazz Chorus. That thing was rugged and dependable.

Cost of maintenance: $0.

[zenpeace69]

Originally posted by fezz parka
OK. For the sake of the disscussion (and a little shameless self promotion), listen to these clips Which do you think are tube amps and which are a solidstate device?

If you can tell (it's no fair if you already know what I use), I'll eat my shoe.

Before I say, I would like to preface this by saying that hearing the clips buried in the mix of a song is going to be much more difficult to discern. Had you made straight clips playing the same riffs with the same amount of gain it would be alot easier.

Ok, here goes...

1) SS
2) SS
3) Tube
4) Tube
5) SS

[zenpeace69]

Originally posted by fezz parka
Ding Ding Ding! Mesotech wins! I guess I'll have to eat my shoe. (Sven had first, but because of the way he answered I had to go with his first response.)

Mesotech also wins this:



The score to the John Wayne film, "Brannigan" by Dominc Frontiere.

Send me an email with you address and I'll get it out to you.

The point of this exercise is that, even for the educated ear, it has become very hard to tell the recorded difference between tube and solid state modelling gear. In a live band situation it's a different story. This stuff is only getting better.

That ain't fair... Your post was loaded with the assumption you had recorded both SS and Tube. Since they were all SS it is a meaningless exercise. We weren't playing "are these SS clips or not?" we were playing which ones are the SS clips and which ones are the tube clips.

[yz25098uk]

excellent thread,
i recently got a tsl122, this is used indoors,,,
and even though i have the power reduction button on, and the volumes all below 1 it still is an excellent sound, on the crunch chanel, it really shakes the floor boards, without being "to loud" for indoors, (terraced house)
previously i used a s/s amp, and never got the same depth from it, even when that was run quite loud, it didnt have the same boom,
i also love the SMELL .......mmmmm
cheers
bruce

[Bolero]

Originally posted by zenpeace69
That ain't fair... Your post was loaded with the assumption you had recorded both SS and Tube. Since they were all SS it is a meaningless exercise. We weren't playing "are these SS clips or not?" we were playing which ones are the SS clips and which ones are the tube clips.

well, that was the whole point, he wanted you to use your EARS instead of making assumptions ;)

[brianf]

Originally posted by yz25098uk
excellent thread,
i recently got a tsl122, this is used indoors,,,
and even though i have the power reduction button on, and the volumes all below 1 it still is an excellent sound, on the crunch chanel, it really shakes the floor boards, without being "to loud" for indoors, (terraced house)
previously i used a s/s amp, and never got the same depth from it, even when that was run quite loud, it didnt have the same boom,
i also love the SMELL .......mmmmm
cheers
bruce

I I use my TSL in the house all the time. I DO NOT use the 25 watt switch. I find I can get great home volume tones by having the master cranked and controlling the overall volume with the gain knob.

When I want preamp gain I like the clean channel. Crank the gain to 10, Guitar at 10 and adjust overall with the master.

yz25098uk do you not find the VPR button kind of muffles the sound? If not what kind of setting are you using on the crunch?

Thanks

brianf

[Tonefreak]

Ahhh yes...but when the Fezz plays live?? He's toting a tube amp as sure as I'm reading this stuff. Guitar players are funny animals in that they'll recommend and praise a TON of equipment. Especially when someone else has to play it. But when the chips are down.....??? ;)

[yz25098uk]

brianf,, yeah the power reduction button does kill some of the tone, but my front room wall is also my neighbours, and she NEVER goes out!!!
on the crunch chanel, gain3, treble6, mids4, bass4, vol just less than1, i dont use the deep button, or the tone shift button, and as i said thats with the power reduction button on,
cheers
bruce
by the way the front room is like 15 foot X12 foot,

[Tonefreak]

I'm getting lost here.

Now we've got a power reduction switch ( like a steam locomotive)

A Tone shift switch ( like when amps went solid state in the first place...the greatest shift ever)

A "Deep" control? ( That HAS to be sexual in nature)

And a Real Estate report.

Interesting stuff anyway!!