The technology is going to have to get a little better before I'll give up playing the tube stuff live! :yayOriginally posted by Tonefreak
Ahhh yes...but when the Fezz plays live?? He's toting a tube amp as sure as I'm reading this stuff.
The technology is going to have to get a little better before I'll give up playing the tube stuff live! :yayOriginally posted by Tonefreak
Ahhh yes...but when the Fezz plays live?? He's toting a tube amp as sure as I'm reading this stuff.
tonefreak , i was just giving brianf the info he asked for,
yeah, my tsl122 has way to many buttons etc, but if i had a plexi i wouldnt ever be able to use it properly unless i lived a loooong way from any one else, ha ha , so the only button worth using (in my opinion) on my 100 watt marshall is the power reduction one, as it gives saturated 25 watt sound,
cheers
bruce
:dead
No problem, Bruce! I have a little fun with some of these posts as you know. We have everything here from hard core veterans with really nice guitars and Bad Cat amps to beginners who don't have much $$ and experience to go on. I try not to offend either camp...but have fun with both!
tonefreak, im sorry if i came over not nice there, my fault,
i didnt mean it to read so serious, youll find out i try to give what little info/help i can , and ask sh*tloads of often daft questions
no probs m8!
cheers mate,
bruce
:dead
PS hopefully ther will be some rock/ blues basic kind of backing tracks in the playing section.
I like Fezz! He's a diplomat on one hand and a die hard tube toting tone fiend on the other!
He'll pat a kid or inexperienced player on the head and say..." That Cyber amp is WONDERFUL...wayyyy cool...!" and stuff like that. Then privately say to himself... " Teeheeee...better you than me plugging into that thing.." and sneak off and plug himself into a '66 Super! The Fezz is no dummy! :)
Originally posted by Tonefreak
I like Fezz! He's a diplomat on one hand and a die hard tube toting tone fiend on the other!
Yep, I do love the old Fenders. :yay
I think that the sound of an amp is only half the equation. I've heard quite a few solid state amps that subjectively sounded a lot like tube amps (while other people played them)....until I plugged into them myself. Yup, the tone was still very close with me playing them too....but the "feel" or tactile feedback from the solid state amp was just wrong, especially at gigging volume. Setting tone aside, has anyone else noticed how a tube amp just seems to breathe or bloom differently than a solid state amp? It's that "becoming part of the rig" (rather than just playing through a rig) thing that a good tube amp just does better at bringing out the best in my playing. And, if the tone and/or feel aren't quite right with my rig, I find it very distracting....and it definitly reflects itself in my playing.
Yup!Originally posted by VaughnC
Setting tone aside, has anyone else noticed how a tube amp just seems to breathe or bloom differently than a solid state amp?
ILL CALL IT DEPTH AND COLOR AND DYNAMICS AND COMPRESSION
SOLIDSTATE IS KOOL FOR DUDES LIKER DIMEONDBAG DARYLL BUT FOR ME I LIKE TUBERS PERSONALLY YET I DONT CARE WHA I USE AS LONG AS I GET PAID AND CAN GET A GOOD TONE
IVE USED PODS IN STUDIO WORK AND LIKE THEM FOR EASE OF SETUPS AND GOT PRETTY DECENT TONES AND LAID MANY TRACKS DOWN GOT PAID MY SESSION $$$ AND LEFT
SO I REALLY DONT CARE
LIVE I PREFER OLD BASSMANS OR 45-50 WATT TUBE MARSHALLS
TONEFUULLY
BLUELOU
GODBLESS
DONT RIDE MY ASS
I LIKE MAKIN $$$ NOT SPENDIN TONS OF WASTED TIME SETTIN UP AMPS
I USE EVEN A OLD TECH 21 SANS AMP ORIGINAL LITTLE BLACK BOX WITH DIP SWITCHES
MANY TIMES AS ITS SESSION WORK AND CHURCH SESSION WORK
IF THE PERFORMER AND BAND MEMBERS WANT ME TO GO HOME BRING A TUBE AMP I WILL
BUT AS FOR THE SETUP TIME IM NOT PAYIN WASTIN TIME ON MINE AND THEIR PART
UNLESS I CUT SLAC
K AND LIKE THE MUSICAL TRACKS OR BAND OR MUSICIANS IM HIRED FOR
SO I'LL BRING MY FAV OL TUBE AMPS
BUT IN MY ARSENAL GIG BAG I GOT A
VERY OL TECH 21SANS AMP BLACK BOX I KNO INSIDE OUT
AND A BUNCH OF PEDALS AND A OL MINI RED POD
IT SOUNDS GOOD
AND ITS EASY TO WORK WITH IN THE BOARD DIRECT
SO IF THE HEADROOM IS THERE AND I GOT MY TUBE PREAMP I DONT CARE I MAY CARRY 5 PIECES OF SMALL GEAR IN MY GEAR BAG AND IT WORKS SUCESSFULLY
NO COMPLAINTS
IF I LUG A MARSHALL JTM45 SOMETIMES THE CHURCH OR HIRERS WILL COMPLAIN ABOUT A LITTLE AMP HISS OR BASSMAN HISS
FOR ME
ITS JUST FUN MAKIN MUSIC SOMETIMES I SESSION OUT FOR FREE FOR THE GOODNESS OF MY HEART AND LOVE OF MUSIC AND CHURCH
MUSIC WISE
I LIKE ALL ASPECTS OF IT
TUBE OR SOLID STATE
BUT AT HEART IM A OL BASSMAN FREAK
ALWAYS WILL BE
SO WHERE IS THE STRAW DRAWN ?
MONEY TALKS
ON GIGS I ONLY RELY ON MY OL TUBE AMPS
BUT AS A HIRED STUDIO GUN FOR BASS OR GUITAR THE OL TECH 21 SANS AMP DIP SWITCHER BLACK BOX DOES THE JOB 90% TIME
MAYBE I LUCK OUT I DONT KNO
BUT I KNO THAT IT WORKS FOR ME
I CANT COMPLAIN
I DO LOVE OL TUBE AMPS PERSONALLY
THE WAY THEY RESPOND AND SOUND
BLUELOU
:)
SINCERELY
BLUELOU
GODBLESS
...vacuum tube amps are sorta like the old "Hallmark Cards" slogan:
"...when you CARE enough to play the very BEST!"
Last edited by Old Tele man; 04-16-2004 at 09:52 PM.
is when you turn them up.
I'm certainly no expert...but in my experience it boils down to this:
My Deluxe 85 SS sounds magnificent up to about 4, after that it starts to break up. As a bedroom amp, I coudn't ask anything more from it. Pinch harmonics and everything. At low volumes, my Super Reverb sounds fair at best. No real tone going on to make you turn your head. But, put it at 4 and above...and only then does it start to shine and give you that warmth. Keep going on the volume and that natural breakup is not brittle and harsh (like the SS), but warm and punchy. The logic of the waves being very sharp makes sense in theory, Tubes have always sounded warmer IMO.
This is an age old discussion that will never end, but has only one answer...and that is: Play what makes you happy.
My father was a Radio-TV repairman in his spare time, and had more than a passing knowledge of vaccum tube vs. transistors ( old terms)! I always thought it was somewhat significant that he recognized the sound reproduction differences. I asked him once, in the early 70's, why my old Twin sounded so much rounder and richer than anything solid state to that point in time. His answer was that tubes would always produce a fatter, warmer tone, but that transistors would be cleaner and create more defined sine waves. This is how he broke it down: You have to think two thaings when listening to music, PRODUCTION and REPRODUCTION.
Organ, Bass, Guitar, and even vocals will sound warmer, fuller, and not as harsh when "produced" by means of tube assisted amplification. The sound must first be created...guitar plugged into amp...and played. This happens to be why most studio players bring great tube amps into the studio with them.
They are "creating the sound". This is the production of tone.
The reproduction occurs when the finished product ( CD) is plugged into a device and played. This is where SS shines. It will pick up the production cleanly, stay cool longer, and be able to be managed easier.
He then went on to say something pretty astute for back then.
"Tube guitar amps are best for 'producing' the tone, solid state amps ( stereos) may best 'reproduce' that same sound..."
Leading me to STILL believe what I've always heard with the ears...Tubes for musical instrument amps...transisitors for stereos!! Life is easy, isn't it? :)
That's a very cool breakdown, Toefreak.
With an electric guitar, the amp is really a part of the instrument. So it's key in the "production" of the sound. Sort of like the material a reed on a saxophone is made of would matter to the player in how he/she is able to make the sound happen.
I've noticed that my acoustics and my chambered & hollowbody guitars sound really good through a SS(keyboard) amp. In varying amounts, unplugged, they already have a voice. So they don't need as much help from an amp.
BUt my strat and my tele are helpless without an amp. Through the SS they sound pretty anemic. Through a good tube amp, with the richness it adds, they become fullfledged instruments.
Cool story, Tonefreak.
"Well, I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..."
Elvis Costello
Thanks, Neo. I really think that with electric guitars it's been proven too often, by too many great players, for too long, that tube amps just genereate superior sound production. At moderate levels, modelling amps even sound OK, but under pressure...the tube amps just shine.
The Claptons, Vaughns, Knopflers, Masons and Paisleys of this world agree with the old man, so who am I to debate this?
Stupid debate, really. You think Mark Sampson ( Matchless/ Badcat) Mike Soldano or Mike Zaite ( Dr Z) ever waste their time with this conversation. Probably far too busy selling and building amps for really good musicians with great ears!
Call me when Badcat makes a SS amp!
I like the tighter... uh, tube-ier... sound of my toobs. Had a digi Vox... still have the line 6 flextone II... have a Trademark 10 (I do REALLY like that for my home)---but they're all different than my tube amps by far. WAY different to me. I have a Dr. Z, a Carr, a Traynor (soon to be two) and they easily sound different by far in my live settings than SS or digimon amps. It's pretty much up to the person who has to play it (and pay for it) that matters. Me, I like my tubes. Compared to the digi and SS amps I have, my vaccum tube amps are tighter, smoother (if that makes sense in the same description) and less "ickhy" than say the line 6 or tech 21 or vox. The digi SS amps are fine for certain applications and will surely be "there" someday soon. Until then, the 6v6s and kt66s and 6l6s and el84 I have smell sweet. Surely no audience will complain or scoff of your sound---I bought the amps for me but play for the audience. So... play on :}
You've got some great sounding amps there. What model of Dr Z are you playing through?
I LOVE MY OL TUBE AMPS
I THINK VACUUM TUBES ADDS THE COLOR AND THE TONE
TO ME ITS WARMER IN MY EARS PLUS MORE FUNNER THE MORE YOU TURN UP A TUBE AMP VOLUME WISE IT REACTS DYNAMICALLY DIFFERENT
MANY NEW OLD STYLE POINT TO POINT HAND WIRED AMPS BOUTIQUE OR CUSTOM ONES
THE MAIN OBJECTIVE TO A MUSICIAN IS THEIR EARS AND WANTS I MEAN ITS TOTALLY UP TO THE MUSICIAN
IVE HEARD SOME GUITAR CATS USE SS AMPS AND THEY SOUNDED GREAT
ITS OBJECTIVE HERE THERE IS TWO SIDES TO THE STORY
TRANSISTORS SOLID STATE AMPS REACT DIFFERENT IN THE WAY THEY CLIP IF YOU WERE TO HONESTLY LOOK AT A OSCILLISCOPE ON THE TWO AMPS UNDER GUITAR LOADS
TOTALL DIFFERENT BALLL GAME
ITS HARD TO EXPLAIN FOR ME BUT VISUALLY SEE IT ON A SCOPE OR SINEWAVE IN TERMS
IT IS WHAT WILL CONVINCE SOME TO TUBES THE CLIPPING ITS TOTALLY DIFFERENT THE WAY A TUBE REACTS AS ITS PUSHED IS MOSTLY PLEASING BUT ALSO I SEEN NICE FENDER TUBE AMPS AND A CRATE AND CARVIN TUBE AMP USIN CHINA PRE AMP 12AX7 TUBES
ONCE I RE TUBED THE AMP WITH GROOVE TUBES IT WAS LIKE NIGHT AND DAY AS THEM CHINA TUBES WERE SO BRIGHT CHINSY AND TONALLY ANAL
IM NOT KNOCIKIN ALL THEM BUT THE FENDER AMP WAS A HOT ROD DELUXE USIN FACTORY HOT ROD PRE AMP 12AX7 TUBES TILL I SEEN THEY SAID CHINA OR ONE WAS A REAL BRAND RUBE MADE IN CHINA
GOOD TUBES OR GRADES OF TUBES MAKE A AMP SING ALSO
SOLID STATE HAS THE HAND ON THIS WHERE WITH A GOOD EQ SECTION A SS AMP CAN WARM UP SOMETIMES PLUS THA SO CALLED RELIABILITY
I DONT KNO ABOUT IT 100% CAUSE IN MY JC120 THE PWR TRANSISTORS WENT ONCE
ITS OBJECTIONABLE TO ME
TUBES BLOW AND SOME NICE EXPENSIVE NEWER TUBE AMPS ARE USIN CHINA TUBES AND CHEAPER TYPE ONES
WANT RELIABILITY I GO WITH GT'S OR MILITARY SOVTEKS THEY ARE OK
JJ EL84'S I LOVE
BUT THEM REAL BRAND AND HOT ROD WHITE LOGO'D FENDER TUBES IM KINDA IMPARTIUAL TO
I CHANGE THEM OUT I GOT ALOT OF OLD PREAMP TUBES I HUNT DOWN OLD CHURCH ORGANS AND THINGS LIKE THAT OL TVS ETC YOUD BE AMAZED WHA OL VS NEW TUBES SOUND LIKE ALSO
LIKE I JUST TORE A OL BALDWIN ORGAN DOWN AND RAPED I THINK 22 12AX7'S A FEW AT7A'S ANS AT7'S AND ALL I CAN SAY IS 95% OF THEM WITH THE BALDWIN OLD WHITE LOGO ON THEM THESE BABIES WORK FINE I ONLY PULLED 2 BAD ONES
MAIN POINT IS TO MY EARS I LIKE SOME OLD NICE TUBES LIKE MY OLD 6L6 RCA'S I GOT 2 PAIRS I KEEP IN HIDING
I GOT 4 PAIRS OF OLD 6V6'S GC'S AND STUFF I FORGET THEYRE IN A DRAWER
THE CARVIN AMP I WORKED ON IT WAS IN NEED OF A TUNEUP AND MAN THESE TUBES WERE VERY RESPONSIVE NOISY TO AMP BUMPING AND IT MADE NOISES
THE PRE AMP TUBES WERE NOISY ALL TRACED TO THE FIRST ONE THAT WREAKED HAVOK ON THA AMP SIMPLE FIX
ALL I AM SAYIN IS I LOVE TUBE AMPS I JUST CANT BELIEVE A TUBE CAN CHANGE THE WHOLE CHARACTER OF A AMPLIFIER
I LIKE BOTH THERE IS GOOD IN BOTH BUT I DO PREFER TUBE FENDERS OR MARSHALLS OR VOXES AC30'S
FOR ME
TONEFREAK NOTED THE SAME DIFFERENCE I AM EXPLAINING ITS WHAT I FOUND OUT WHEN I WORKED IN MY UNCLES OLD TV REPAIR SHOP 20+YRS BACK
THEY SHOWED ME A VISUAL DIFFERENCE NOT ONLY IN THE PHYSICAL NATURE OF THE 2 BEASTS
BUT INB THE OSCILLISCOPE
2 DIFFERENT MACHINES
ITS UP TO THE MUSICIANS EARS
I LIKE MY OLD FENDERS THE BEST ESPECIALLY 2 BASSSMAN HEADS I LOVE
IM NOT KNOCKIN ANYTHING CAUSE I BET ERIC JOHNSON CAN MAKE A SS AMP SING
I WILL NEVER DOUBT ANYONE MAKIN MONEY WITH SS AMPS LIKE ALBERT KING OR BB KING ETC IM SURE ALL THE JAZZ CATS USIN THEM ROLAND CUBES AND JC120'S ETC ARE FINE
ITS JUST OPINIONS
TO ME I HEAR THE TONAL DIFFERENCE AND KNO THE DYNAMICS OF A TUBE AMP AS OPPOSED TO A SS AMP IN MOST CASES
RUSH ALEX LEIFSON WAS USIN ON VAPORTRAILS A VETTA STACK LIVE AT THE ST PETERSBURG ARENA HE SOUNDED GOOD
ITS WEIRD
THIS TOPIC IS OLD GOOD AND INTERESTING
SINCERELY
BLUELOU
GODBLESS
BTTT
Well there's too much reading to read eveyones, but all I gotta say. On paper according to scientists bumbles bees can't fly. there too short to heavy and ther wing span isn't long enough.. And yet they fly. besides who says this article wasn't written by a engineer at a ss factory or something? lol What gets me in all the articles ii've read. That in the late 70's you couldn't give tubes amps away. No one wanted them. But companys like fender etc. Said no wait we think there awesome. they sound better. And where gonna give our customers a choice. And 10+ years later the customers have choosen. Now every ones following fenders lead. Besides "difference is a matter of perception. What he says are Subtile, I SAY ARE NIGHT AND DAY !
Well, not exactly the case.Originally Posted by Constellation80
- Most professional rock folks at least preferred tubes in th elate 70's.
- Most engineers didn't, because it was old technology, "more prone to failure," a large source of heat, etc..
- CBS Fender would probably have preferred to sell pc-board SS amps, since the labor costs on the hand wired tube amps was dramatically rising.
- Tube production was shutting down in the Western world.
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
Huhhhhh??????
The flight of the bumblebee is extremely well understood. As with most insects with paired wings, the vorticity induced by each pair interacts wit the other to creat the circulation.
I have know idea where this myth occurred. I'm sure if you search the net you'll be able to find lots and lots on insect aerodynamics.
'Course, I'm just one of those engineer/scientist types that deals with why things fly, so what would I know?
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
Bees are solid state, so inspite of their pudgy proportions they're light enough to fly.
"Well, I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..."
Elvis Costello
Aaaahhhhh! That's where the "can of angry bees" tone metaphor comes from. I get it.
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
And I thought it was due to reduced mass due to the vacuum in their tubes.
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
I dig the SS crunch. I use lots and lots of SS in my signal for rock stuff, as it's part of the sound. Then I warm it up with a tube preamp and output section.
Funny thing was, we saw lots of amps with tube preamps and SS power sections when the hybrids started coming out. That was all wrong. A SS preamp with a tube power stage would be exactly what most of us end up doing when we play live.
Almost every player I see with a tube amp uses at least one SS device ahead of it in the signal chain. So it's really a moot point.
"No harmonic knowledge, no sense of time, a ghastly tone, unskilled vibrato, and so on. Chuck is one of the worst guitar players I know" -Gravity Jim
That's mainly an 80's through current situation, since a low volt "marketing" style tube preamp is a lot cheaper to build.
70's hybrids, like MusicMan and SG Systems were tube output with SS preamp.
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
Yeah, I agree. I've mostly played my archtop through SS amps. Lot of jazz players like Polytones for example. With a 335, Les Paul, Strat, Tele etc a tube amp seems to generally work better.
Well I'm startting to wonder where i learn this crap HAHA. your right it's a myth about the bumble bee thing "A long-held myth of the bumblebee was that, in terms of theoretical aerodynamics, it did not have the capacity (in terms of wing size or beat per second) to achieve flight with the degree of wing loading necessary. This myth became popular after an aerodynamicist in the 1930s stated that a bumblebee was not capable of flight. The statement was based upon an assumption that the bee's wing could be treated as a static aerofoil. However, in reality the bumblebee's flight is characterized by an oscillating wing that shares more characteristics with a helicopter rotor than an aeroplane wing." I found this on the net and it tells you where the myth comes from. Sorry guys. The point I was trying to make was that even though something either works or doesn't on paper. Often in real life it's a tottaly differn't thing.
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