Anyone tried to study singing more seriously?

[Plugger]

After many years of being a pretty ordinary singer, I decided I'd take it a bit more seriously and take a few lessons. The singing teacher recommended to me was a very experienced classically trained guy. He told me to bring my guitar along to the first lesson and sing him a few songs, which I did. He then informed me that, strictly speaking, I wasn't singing. I was "talking" (his words.) He started to go into the mechanics of a "properly" produced singing voice. Holy shit! This stuff is complicated...

And it really is. After all these years, I've actually discovered how _hard_ singing is. I recently bought the "Singing for Dummies" book. Just reinforces that idea. Singing is hard. And I'm slowly beginning to understand where this guy was coming from with his "you aren't actually singing" remarks (mind you, to be fair, by this criteria about 90% of r'n'r singers don't really sing either...)

I was originally hoping for some quick and dirty tricks and techniques to make an untrained hack singer with (at best) a modest natural ability into a slightly better hack singer. But I now think it ain't going to happen. Improvement is going to take regular practice and exercise of the relevant muscles. The good news is that even a few short weeks of practice has led to some measurable (if not dramatic) improvement. Basic stuff, like the importance of warming up...

Just thought I'd compare notes with anyone else who's been down this path. (If there a source of "qiuck and dirty tricks for hack singers" that I just haven't been able to find, pointers are appreciated... )

-Mark

[curtisstetka]

My wife is a classicaly trained opera singer. She'd have a field day with this post.

The vocal chords are like any other instrument in that the mastery of their use is an exacting discipline. Unlike any other instrument you can't see 'em and you can't buy better ones if yours just don't have The Stuff.

Of course, "proper" classical / operatic technique doesn't necessarily apply to R 'n R music. I mean, I like Mark Knopfler's "singing". Heck, sometimes I even like Bob Dylan's "singing".

[Plugger]

My wife is a classicaly trained opera singer. She'd have a field day with this post.

Now having an inkling of what that really means, I'm full of admiration.

The vocal chords are like any other instrument in that the mastery of their use is an exacting discipline. Unlike any other instrument you can't see 'em and you can't buy better ones if yours just don't have The Stuff.

Yeah, but my vocal chords are early 60s. Not the reissues. _Genuine vintage_ early 60s chords. Tone, baby! I've been offered six-figures for them, but I won't sell.

(What the bar-owner actually said was that if I don't stop singing by the count of six he'd tear my throat out, but close enough...)

Of course, "proper" classical / operatic technique doesn't necessarily apply to R 'n R music. I mean, I like Mark Knopfler's "singing". Heck, sometimes I even like Bob Dylan's "singing".

Right. That's where I was coming from. But it seems that if you want to study technique, you can't find the Knopfler technique, or the Dylan technique. You can't find books on "singing". There's just singing.

Certainly, r'n'r singers generally don't have to develop the power of a trained operatic voice, because we have mics and PAs. And having to produce the requisite volume constrains the technical approaches possible for an opera singer. Crooning won't cut it in a Wagner opera. That alone should make r'n'r a lot easier than opera singing... and of course it is! But it seems there's still a lot of technique with respect to producing a good tone that is shared, and just that part is hard enough.

It's also interesting to find out how many rock singers have had to go back and get some remedial technical training after they start damaging their voices through misuse... even guys with great "natural" voices.

-Mark

[curtisstetka]

One thing is for certain - having a more "proper" technique will help greatly in your ability to sing in tune and without fatiguing quickly.

You're right, lots of r 'n r singers have wrecked their voice over the years through a technique that bangs 'em together or otherwise moves them in a fashion that damages them.

[Jonnda]

I had one semester of classes and then I was on my own to figure it out in the mandatory male choir I'm in. I think after about two years I'm starting to understand what I need to be doing with my muscles.

[Wilko]

IMNSHO, most singers are "talking" just like your teacher said.

I took a few semesters of singing in college.

Once you "get" what singing is and how it feels, you can then move along and actually sing with your own style.

A little breathing control and knowing where your actual range is will take you a long way.

You may even get to be a snob like me who wonders why the hell there are microphones and piezos in "cafes".

[boobtube21]

My sister is a trained vocalist, and she can sing pretty damn good, one of my cousins is trained too and he wails. I have tried really hard in the past to sing the right way, taking bits of advice from both of them, but the most I ever learned was from experimentation, and trying to mimic other singers.

I can in no way, I repeat, in NO WAY match Roy Orbison's skills or beautiful voice, but one day I was messing around doing a really ridiculous and flamobouyant imitation of him, and I inadvertantly discovered real vibrato. Not the forced kind you hear some singers doing, but like, when you're not even trying and it just rolls right on out, in really fast oscillations (if that makes any sense).

From there I think I kind of figured out how to really sing, and ever since I use my voice in an entirely different way than before. Now some people tell me I have a great voice when I sing. Before they just sort of furrowed their brow and looked confused.

[stonetone]

This thread scares the hell out of me.

Damage through misuse?

[Gravity Jim]

I took a a year of classical voice when I was 15, and then another year of casual classroom Mixed Choir training the Jordan College in the 70s. It certainly helped me learn to control my breathing and vibrato.

I don't know what this guy means at all. When I sing pop music, I'm singing. And I don't care what any blue-veined vocal coach has to say on the subject.

On the other hand, the same blue-veined music types at Butler admitted me to the school even though I couldn't read music, strictly on the strength of my audition. The dean called me personally to let me know I'd been accepted, and said, "Normally, not having those skills is an automatic rejection, but you performed your audition pieces with so much skill and passion, we felt it would be wrong to deny you the benefits of a higher education in music." (My vocal piece was "Sister Fatima" by Don McLean - not even a classical piece - and my piano piece was "Solace" by Scott Joplin, which I had learned by ear.)

Singing has always been my primary musical skill, so maybe I don't understand this question because I've always been singing instead of "talking."

[juniorspecial]

I've taken some vocal lessons, and they were a big, big help to me.

Now, I can really belt it!

[superduper]

one character

[superduper]

one character

[Wilko]

SUperduper has some great tips, but I gotta say, it's a lot like learning playing technique.

IMNSHO, too much technique robs the musician of their personal sound and makes them generic. It's not proper singing that inspires. It's the humanity and unique individual qualities that are are remembered.

Learn what you need to do what you want to do. If you want to project and breathe right and put out pure tones perfectly on key, then get out there and study and practice.

[superduper]

See,.. that's a whole 'nother debate.
Jerry Garcia vs Pavoratti. Both love(d) to sing. That's the key isn't it?

You can learn technique but if that's all you play, people fall asleep.
Knowledge empowers, if you've got soul, you can become a powerful soul.

Art for arts sake to me is paramount, but I wouldn't trade what I've learned for a real 59 Les Paul!

- Don

[Wilko]

It's all part of the journey. We are always learning. Learn what you need. Learn to expand.

The Arts are great for the soul

[NeoFauve]

I see these singers on the TV, usually girls, holding a note and their jaw is kinda' fluttering.
What the hell is that all about?

Do vocal coaches or singing teachers teach, for lack of a better term, "jaw vibrato?"
Or is that something kids pickup from old Whitney Houston videos?

[Wilko]

They got it from the source. Whitney got it from Steve Perry.

[frank thomson]

my voice sucks....but everybody seems to enjoy it, sooooooooo..

what-ever

no lessons
never did
never will

[NeoFauve]

They got it from the source. Whitney got it from Steve Perry.

So is Steve "Oh Sherry" Perry "the source" then ?

Or did he get it from horn players?

I'm pretty sure Whitney devised the keeping time by tapping on the mic with non-grip-essential digits thing.
Another annoying tick of the modern vocalist.

[frank thomson]

So is Steve "Oh Sherry" Perry "the source" then ?

Or did he get it from horn players?

I'm pretty sure Whitney devised the keeping time by tapping on the mic with non-grip-essential digits thing.
Another annoying tick of the modern vocalist.

dig that!!!!! i haaaaaaate that!

[Wilko]

Horn players? Tremolo has been around forever. Violins depend on it for intonation and inflection. Singers do it to shape notes and for intonation.

Wagging your jaw to do it is impossible to do while blowing a horn. Nobody wags their jaw like Steve Perry. that guy can generate some syllables.

Tapping the mic?! How 'bout that thing where you point to the notes in the air as you hit them (a la Christina Aguilara)?