Jazz Scales

[TonsofBlues]

Need me some help, if you could be so kind.

Recently, I've been flirting with some Jazz numbers, etc. I've got a good handle on some new patterns, chords, but when I got use some of my trusty scales, they just don't fit...

Please point me in the right direction..

[JAM]

T o B,

What jazz tunes are you playing?

[TonsofBlues]

Thanks Fezz... tasty stuff! Thats what I'm talking about... I think the biggest thing thats messin me up is the different style of voicing, etc.... I'll whip the puppy into shape... that web page is tasty stuff, good intel..

Jam, just making up my own stuff....

[pc]

ToB, Jazz scales are no different than any other style of music. Connecting your ideas in non-scalar ways is the key.

One of the most common devices in Jazz is the ii-V-I. I.e., in the key of C: Dm7-G7-CMaj7. Note that the C major scale works great over that whole thing, although I like to think of it as a D minor (Dorian) scale working over the whole thing.

A lot of really complex Jazz stuff is really just cascading ii-V-I ideas that feed into each other. Jazz players "outline the changes" to hit those key resolutions at the right times. I.e, Dm7-G7, you really want to nail the notes C to B (the 7th of Dm7 to the 3rd of G7).

That's when you start to forget about scales, because using non-scalar "approach-tones" make it even more interesting and spicy.

Note also that Jazz players tend to make those ii-V lines even when the chords aren't written that way. A whole bar of G7 can be made more interesting by inferring the changes: Em7 - A7b9 - Dm7 - G7.

"Tritone subs" are used a lot too. For a whole bar of G7, infer the changes Abm7 - Db7 - Dm7 - G7.

One last thing--the diminshed scale. Make it your friend. It's so simple on the top four strings of a guitar. The fingering, starting on the D string and going upward:

1-3-4
1-2-4
1-3-4
1-2-4

In other words, starting on the 7th fret on an A note it would be:
A-B-C
D-Eb-F
Gb-Ab-A
B-C-D

In steps (Whole and Half) it's W-H-W-H-W-H-W-H

In a song in A minor, use your A minor scale mostly, then for some flavor, use the A dimished scale shown above. It instantly gives you that "outside" flavor. Then a little later, near beat 4 of one of the bars, move that exact pattern either down one fret (first note G#) or up two frets (first note B). Run part of that scale so it ends up on an A minor chord tone (A-C-E-G) on beat one of the next measure.

Congrats, you've just played a hip altered scale over E7b9.

Just some ideas to play with.

[NTBluesGuitar]

There's some groovy stuff to be had with Melodic Minor modes, sometimes known as Jazz Minor. Basically, a major scale with a flat 3rd.

It's good over:
Minor Triads
Minor with #7
Minor 9(#7)
Minor11(#7)
Minor 13(#7)

Also, there's the Bebop scales; in major, dominant, and minor flavors.

Bebop Dominant, for use where Mixolydian scales work:
1-2-3-4-5-6-b7-7-8 (Mixolydian scale with added b7th)

Bebop Major, for use where Major scales work:
1-2-3-4-5-#5-6-7-1 (Major mode with added #5th)

Bebop Minor, for use where Dorian mode works:
1-2-b3-3-4-5-6-b7-8 (Dorian mode with added natural 3rd)

[djinn1973]

Reading through the other replies, I see a lot of really good info/advice. The only thing I would like to add is this, if you aren't already, start listening to a lot of Jazz guitar, hearing the way that other people play will really help you with things like tone and phrasing. And that (at least as far as I can tell) is the difference between playing scales and playing solos.

Mimi Fox
Perpetually Hip

[JAM]

You can get a lot of mileage from a major scale if you dont think in the root key. For example an Eb major will work against an altered G7 chord.

Jazz players often use the melodic minor for altered 7 chords (+/-5 +/-9) for example Ab melodic minor (the ascending mode only), starting on "G" gets all the tones in an altered G7+/-5, +/-9. It shares a fair amount of the same tones in the "dominant" scale pc mentions (HWHW), if the first interval is a half-step it's dominant, if it's a whole step it's diminished.

[pc]

Also, there's the Bebop scales; in major, dominant, and minor flavors.

Bebop Major, for use where Major scales work:
1-2-3-4-5-6-b7-7-8 (Major scale with added b7th)

Bebop Dominant, for use where Mixolydian scales work:
1-2-3-4-5-6-#5-6-b7-8 (Mixolydian mode with added #5th)

Bebop Minor, for use where Dorian mode works:
1-2-b3-3-4-5-6-b7-8 (Dorian mode with added natural 3rd)

NT, you have the first two bebop scales backward. Dominant bebop is 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7-7-1

Major bebop is 1-2-3-4-5-b6-6-7-1

Minor bebop is what you have written, and can also be thought of as just the bebop scale for the related V chord.

[JAM]

The only thing I would like to add is this, if you aren't already, start listening to a lot of Jazz guitar, hearing the way that other people play will really help you with things like tone and phrasing. And that (at least as far as I can tell) is the difference between playing scales and playing solo.

Yep, listening is still probably more important than anything.

I spent quite a few years teaching (at a local store and at some community colleges). I would have guys that never listened to jazz come in wanting to learn jazz, but no amount of theory could help them if they had no idea what sounds they were after. The sound(s) have to start in your head.

[pc]

... if the first interval is a half-step it's dominant, if it's a whole step it's diminished.

Not exactly. They're both still diminished scales, referred to in the pedagogical resources as the "whole-half" diminished scale and the "half-whole" diminished scale. Referring to it as "dominant" scale is misleading because that infers a mixolydian scale.

In all honesty I've seen it referred to as "Bebop Dominant" and (incorrectly) as "Dominant Whole-Tone," but it can't be called just "dominant." It's still a diminished scale because it never varies from the W-H-W-H pattern.

Aside from that minor quibble over established semantics, I agree with everything you've written in the rest of that post and the other posts. Great info!

[JAM]

pc,

You're in disagreement with the great Dick Grove. It's really nothing more than a reference, it is of course a diminished scale. G7-9=Ab dim for example, start on the G and go HW or start on Ab and go WH. Jazz players know that it's different than mixolydian. We learned it that way in class just to keep our thinking straight!

[pc]

Then Dick Grove is in disagreement with David Baker, Pat Martino, Jamey Aebersold, the entirety of Berklee Press. That's the problem with Jazz pedagogy--too many chefs in the kitchen!

And you're right, Jazz players know it's different than mixolydian, but this thread was aimed at someone new to Jazz stuff, so I just wanted to be clear.

[TonsofBlues]

Thanks Guys... this is exactly what Willy needed. I feel stronger moving into the world of Jazz. PC, thats some helpful stuff. Thats what I was looking for, but didn't not exactly how to ask for it..

Thanks again, just another reason I love my TFF home on the internet..

[blueman61]

All of the scales in the world won't be much help if you can't analyze the function of the chords in the progression. It's a long road, but there's really no substitute for a good, live, human teacher with knowledge of the idiom. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get a good jazz theory text and read through it to get going. Referencing the melody, Understanding II-Vs, studying the greats and knowing lots of tunes, scales and arpeggios (especially this) in all keys are a good beginning, but a great teacher is the key to pulling it all together. You want a guy who plays bebop and standards AND who can patiently explain what works. Plenty of guys can play, not everybody can communicate in an organized, understandable, sequential and effective way. Good luck. It's a big but very worthwhile project.

blueman61

[TonsofBlues]

All of the scales in the world won't be much help if you can't analyze the function of the chords in the progression. It's a long road, but there's really no substitute for a good, live, human teacher with knowledge of the idiom. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get a good jazz theory text and read through it to get going. Referencing the melody, Understanding II-Vs, studying the greats and knowing lots of tunes, scales and arpeggios (especially this) in all keys are a good beginning, but a great teacher is the key to pulling it all together. You want a guy who plays bebop and standards AND who can patiently explain what works. Plenty of guys can play, not everybody can communicate in an organized, understandable, sequential and effective way. Good luck. It's a big but very worthwhile project.

blueman61

Thanks for that...

I feel comfortable with what I can do now.. I feel as if I could hold my own with anybody on blues, rock, etc. Jazz, to me has always been that unopened door with many new lessons to learn. I don't nessecarily want to be a "jazz guitarist", I just want to be the best I can be...

I enjoy teaching myself.. every now and then, I'll get someone to show me something, but my real joy comes from using my brain to crack the code..

[Offshore Angler]

All great advice. Remeber as well though, that one of the core concepts of jazz is breaking the rules. Sometimes a jazz scale isn't a scale in the traditional sense of intervals, but a geometric pattern played on the neck. This can result in changes in the intervals as you play! Many jazzbos use this technique.

[cooltone]

but this thread was aimed at someone new to Jazz stuff, so I just wanted to be clear.

umm, so could you guys repeat everything after fezz says "you can easily play..."? 'cause all I heard is blah blah blah wha wha wha wha blah blah blah...

[ES350]

The whole concept of 'jazz' is at odds with most popular music for the last 30-40 years or so...in terms of rhythmic, melodic, and harmonic devices. Most rock music works at the level of a triad or root/fifth and melodies and solos rely heavily on pentatonics with a blues-based triplet feel. If this is what you grew up on, you really need to listen, listen, listen...and then listen some more.

[NTBluesGuitar]

NT, you have the first two bebop scales backward.

Thanks for catching that. It's been a while since I had to remember this stuff. I went and fixed it.

[NeoFauve]

Play melodies and learn how the melody relates to the chord progression it's being played over. I think it's one of the things that guitarists forget about, playing melodies. That's what playing music is about, not just ripping up and down a scale.

[pc]

Another thing I'd add is to listen to other things besides jazz guitar recordings. Sax and piano players especially will do things that make more sense on their instruments which are fun and challenging to translate to guitar because they haven't been done a zillion times already. I love to use the Michael Brecker "false fingering" technique now and again. (On a sax, there are some notes you can hit with a different key combination in addition to the normal key combination, but the "false" note is usually a microtone sharp or flat from the actual note. Brecker was famous for doing sixteenth notes between the real tone and the false tone, sometimes alternating, sometimes doing "paradiddles," etc.)

Oh, and no jokes about the terms "false fingering" or "paradiddles." I'll ban you. Seriously.

Anyway, one really great way to start getting these solos under your fingers is to get yourself a copy of the "Charlie Parker Omnibook." It's basically a compendium of many Charlie Parker solo transcriptions. To understand the playing of any true Jazz great today, you have to go back and understand what THEY were listening to. Parker's playing is the perfect example of using melodic ideas connected by scalar runs.

Get the book (there are several versions written for different instruments, make sure you get the version in "C" for pianists/guitarists) and get a simple sequencing system (or Band In A Box, etc.) and plug in the chord changes. Then practice the solos slowly as you feel those shapes get under your fingers. It'll help get that stuff in your ears.

[Guitar_Mc]

Anyway, one really great way to start getting these solos under your fingers is to get yourself a copy of the "Charlie Parker Omnibook."

I know this is gonna sound bad, but do they have it in tab for us DAs that can't read off of a staff?

[NTBluesGuitar]

Oh, and no jokes about the terms "false fingering" or "paradiddles." I'll ban you. Seriously.

I would NEVER! ...how about double and triple-tonguing...can I joke about that?

Trumpet is fun to do false fingerings on, and there are a LOT of trills and arpeggios that are done with the lips alone like a bugle.

But you make a good point, horn players sometimes strive to be vocal, and rhythm guys sometimes ry to sound more horn-like (notice I didn't say horny, y'all).

Take a listen to Jaco Pastorius's take on Charlie Parker's Donna Lee, for example.

[ES350]

FWIW, Tal didn't read...