Kinman: Blues or Traditional?

[Sage]

I have a set of Kinman AVn-Traditional Mk II pickups in my current strat. I've wired them up with a 0.1 uf capacitor. I've also installed a super switch, so that the middle position selects all three pickups, and I use this sound a lot.

I love the sweetness of tone, but I find that the Traditionals have a slightly metallic attack and a very bright top end. I can get a fantastic clean sound, absolutely gorgeous shimmering bell-like tones, but I am not entirely satisfied with the crunch sounds. And regardless of whether I play clean or dirty, I find that I always have to turn the presence knob all the way down on any amp I use, and sometimes I have to pull the treble down, too.

I'm considering switching the Traditionals out for a set of AVn-Blues instead, but I'm a little hesitant. I don't play blues, per se, and I don't want to lose those gorgeous shimmering clean belltones. But I do want a good, smooth rock crunch with a softened attack.

What do you guys think? Should I take the plunge on a set of AVn-Blues pickups?

Better yet, does anybody have some side-by-side sound samples I can use to compare the two sets? I've listened to the samples on Kinman's site but they're too hard to compare, being different material played through different amps and settings.

[Tonedog]

Are your pots 250k ohm?? It sounds like you might have 500k pots in there with your discription of the very bright tone. Your .1uF tone cap is a little higher value than normal too, but I'd think that would darken the sound a bit, isn't the standard .047, or .05uF??

[DoobieK]

Not able to offer any advice Sage, but I am having the same issues with my MkII set. I even have the no-solder set, with all pots and caps from Kinman. Just thought I would chime in to let you know you aren't alone with regards to this.

[Sage]

Are your pots 250k ohm?? It sounds like you might have 500k pots in there with your discription of the very bright tone. Your .1uF tone cap is a little higher value than normal too, but I'd think that would darken the sound a bit, isn't the standard .047, or .05uF??

My pots are all 250k -- in fact, I measured a bunch of pots with a multimeter and chose the ones that measured closest to 250k.

The .1uF capacitor is what used to be standard on vintage Strats. Smaller values are more common today, but I chose a .1uF cap for a slightly darker, more vintage tone.

I should stress that the brightness can be mitigated by turning down treble, and especially presence, on the amp. I do love these pickups, they're the best I've ever had. I just wonder if I couldn't get an even better crunch sound with a softer attack and a smoother distortion out of those Blues pickups. It would be great if I don't have to sacrifice the clean tone.

[Sage]

Not able to offer any advice Sage, but I am having the same issues with my MkII set. I even have the no-solder set, with all pots and caps from Kinman. Just thought I would chime in to let you know you aren't alone with regards to this.

DoobieK, you may find that you like the sound better if you switch the capacitor out. If you're using the Kinman-supplied capacitor it is probably a .022uF capacitor. I have a .1uF capacitor in mine, and though I would like a softer attack and smoother distortion, I find that the Traditionals are still the best pickups I've ever heard so far. A higher-value capacitor might be what you want.

Meanwhile, I realized I had some money in my paypal account, so I went ahead and ordered the Blues set. I'll be recording some sound files to compare the two sets; we'll see how it goes!

[DoobieK]

Sage, Thanks for the tip. Will it make a difference, even if the tone control is always wide open at "10"?

[Sage]

I have never tried doing an "A vs. B" demo of different capacitors, but common wisdom is that it does make a difference. A pot turned all the way up still has some resistance, and people often move the second tone pot from the middle pickup to the bridge, to soften it a little.

I leave my volume and tone pots at 10 all the time, myself. I chose the .1uF capacitor because that was the standard on Fender guitars for a very long time, and even today, certain models like the Eric Johnson strat use a .1uF capacitor.

That said, some pickup manufacturers design their models to match up with a .022uF capacitor, which is more common on modern Strats. Kinman recommends a .022uF cap with his pickups. But I've been pleased with my .1uF cap.

I don't know if you're comfortable with soldering, since you use the no-solder harness, but if you are, it's worth a shot. A $2 capacitor is way cheaper than new pickups. :)

[thatbobguy8]

My friend uses the blues pickups and I gotta tell ya, they rip. I myself have a set of jason lollar vintage, and a set of lindy fralin specials, in 2 diferent strats. Both are amazing! I would have to say over all I like the fralin's the best. Very chimmy and strat sounding. Also though I use 500k volume pots for a little extra growl when I attack the strings hard. Hope this helps.

[jpap]

I guess it's mostly that 62b on your bridge that causes this attackfull crunch. That's why I use 56ers on all 3 positions, and not a pure Trad. MKII set. However, if you need great top end with nice crunch growl, and like to stay on Kinmans, try either the HMS set (Hank Marvin) or the regular Woodstocks. You may also replace only your bridge pup (62b) with a different sounding one (e.g. 64, SCN or 69b), and retain both 56ers in mid and neck position for bell like sounds. I don't recommend AVn Blues for those vintage clean, bell like tones... That's why I use them only for crunchy blues stuff and old dirty rock sounds (a'la SRV, Rory Gallagher, etc.)

[Sage]

I guess it's mostly that 62b on your bridge that causes this attackfull crunch. That's why I use 56ers on all 3 positions, and not a pure Trad. MKII set. However, if you need great top end with nice crunch growl, and like to stay on Kinmans, try either the HMS set (Hank Marvin) or the regular Woodstocks. You may also replace only your bridge pup (62b) with a different sounding one (e.g. 64, SCN or 69b), and retain both 56ers in mid and neck position for bell like sounds. I don't recommend AVn Blues for those vintage clean, bell like tones... That's why I use them only for crunchy blues stuff and old dirty rock sounds (a'la SRV, Rory Gallagher, etc.)

It wasn't the 62b at the bridge causing the problem. The sharp, metallic attack was present even when I was just playing through the neck pickup, which was a 56. And I'm playing on pure nickel strings here, not just nickel-wound steel.

I have switched the pickups out for a Blues set and I am far more pleased. The attack is softer and I no longer hear that metallic clang. The AVn-62 pickups at the neck and middle positions seem to have cured my ills. I lost a little of that vintage belltone brightness, but I can get it back by turning up the presence knob on the amp. Between that and a small reduction on the mids on the amp as well, I can pretty much get the same clean tone I had before.

However, I'm not terribly impressed with the SCn at the bridge. It seems a little too growly. I may try to switch the AVn-62b back in, but I may order an AVn-59 instead. Its description makes it sound like a better counterpoint to the AVn-62 pickups for a more vintage sound, whereas the SCn is really meant for a growly Texas blues sound.

[jpap]

Indeed, that's the main reason why personally I don't recommend Kinman Blues for vintage sounds: The SCn is a nice pup for crunch blues sounds, but not for vintage. My little advice: Put either your 62b again on your bridge position, or, if you still have the whole MKII set, try your mid 56er on bridge, that gives a more vintage touch, and (combined with your current 62 in mid position) a nice in-between sound... Don't hesitate to combine different Kinmans. I have all his models shared in 6 strats, and many of them are totally mixed sets...

[Offshore Angler]

Or use an EQ pedal and enjoy the highs when you need them, or pull them out and push the mids for crunch. I'm a resistant-to-change guy, but I'm learning that if you start with any decent pups, and have a 7 or 10 band EQ pedal, along with a good compressor, it's like having a whole bag of pickups available.

The new Boss 10 band has 9 programmable EQ settings. That's a boatload of versatility for the price.

[Sage]

The AVn-59 at the bridge did the trick. The Traditional Mk II set still has the most twang, but my 62-62-59 combination is close and takes the edge off considerably. If I want to get close to the Traditionals again, all I need to do is raise the presence on my amp. :)

[stratcat62]

I have Kinman Woodstocks and Blues. As stated in a previous post both have that bit of undesired brightness which can be tweaked out with a fair amount of experimentation. I also agree with another post advising mixed sets. My number 1 strat (ash body and maple fret board) has Blues in the neck and middle with the bridge pup from the Woodstocks (actually I believe it was JPAP advising this in an earlier thread). This combination gives me the sounds I want, but may not be right for you. One area I will disagree, nicely, with JPAP is depending on the other components in your rig the Blues can deliver excellent vintage tones. In spite of some opinions to the contrary, pups are only part of the equation. It has taken me nearly one full year to get all the components of my rig to work together and do what I want.