Small amp w/ Fender tone

[Josh_Voulters]

OK, here's the deal. I have an amp for my Marshall/heavy/saturated/creamy tones, and I'm very pleased with it. However, I now need an amp that will give me the clean tones I really want, and the tones I want are Fender all the way. I want an amp that has the characteristic sparkling, clear highs, transparent and unobtrusive mids of all great (IMO) Fender amps. But the thing is, I need to be able to get this tone at reasonable levels for recording (think bedroom levels, or maybe a bit louder).

I would guess that I wouldn't be getting the best out of a DRRI at this low a level, but something like a champ would start breaking up into distortion too early. So, what's in the middle of the two, and has Fender tone to the roof? Thanks for helping a desperate brother!

[3rdStone]

Carr Rambler w/ a single 12" speaker. 28 watts becomes 14 watts w/ the flip of a switch. Very Fendery w/ better sustain, especially at low volumes. Has reverb and trem. Works well w/ pedals. Compact and lightweight.

[brianf]

Fender Blues Junior. Lots of headroom.

brianf

[Don]

Champs are louder than you think. They're very good for bedroom practicing.

I have a Princeton Reverb that's about perfect for the bedroom. It might even be a tad loud.

The Pro Jr and Blues Jr just don't sound as good to me but are a little less expensive than a Princeton Reverb and with the Blues Jr's master volume you can sound good at pretty low volume levels.

[Josh_Voulters]

Originally posted by Don
Champs are louder than you think. They're very good for bedroom practicing.

Don, the reason I want something with more wattage isn't actually about the loudness (my other main amp is a Cornford Harlequin, which is 6w), its about the headroom. I need something that I can rely on to get great clean tone without breaking up, but just working the power tubes enough to get me the optimum tone. I'll check out the Princeton, though. Thanks for the tip.

3rdstone, how much did the Rambler set you back? Sounds pretty much perfect if i can find one for the right price though, thanks.

[3rdStone]

Originally posted by Josh_Voulters
...3rdstone, how much did the Rambler set you back? Sounds pretty much perfect if i can find one for the right price though, thanks.

Josh, I bought mine new for $1,400 a year ago or so. They retail for around $2,000 now. I've seen them used for $1,200 - $1,400 recently. I don't see them on the used market too often, though. Play one if you can.

[Josh_Voulters]

I went to the Carr website and downloaded a couple of the strat through rambler soundfiles. Good and bad news: Good news is, that's the tone i'm looking for. Bad news is, $1,400 invariably translates to £1,400 for us backwards Brits. And that's £1,400 I just don't have, unfortunately. I think I've got something to work for, though! And i'll see if i can actually try one out first hand, but I've got a feeling that not many people in England will have one, let alone people that will let me near it! You were right about the tone though...

[3rdStone]

Yeah, I know what you mean about the translation price.

For me, the Rambler has made my Fenders redundant - not obsolete, because I often play w/ multi-amp setups, but the Carr is most often my "go to" amp if I'm gonna use just one. If I chose to sell my Fenders that the Carr has moved off the top perch, I could make back the dough I spent on the Carr. Luckily, it's not an issue.

If you liked the mp3 tones you heard, make a point of playing the Rambler if you can find one. It's much more impressive in the flesh. It's a Fender-style amp, but you can dial in more "beef" (fatter tones) and "butter" (smoother tones) than the typical Fender can offer. More headroom, too.

Too bad there are no Carr dealers in England.

[Don]

That amp sounds great. Given the specs and tone, it sounds like a "stranded on a deserted island" kind of amp.
You can practice at home and play clubs with that amp.

I believe that good tone is priceless, but...

$1400 is a lot of money!

[brianf]

Guys, the best way to get a Fender tone is with a Fender amp!

brianf

[3rdStone]

Originally posted by Don
...I believe that good tone is priceless, but...$1400 is a lot of money!

To me, it's not a lot if it's THE amp that represents a "tonal solution." That's what it is for me. I'm not gonna try to convince anyone that, as a single item, it's cheap, but look at how much money and time musicians spend searching for the answer only to find that they are still spending time and money in an aggravating and, seemingly, endless tone search, and still turning over equipment (at a loss). Comparatively, though, it might be cheap - even a bargain - when you add up the total cost of all those other gear expenditures that didn't work out.

Keep in mind, too, that it's a combo, not just a head. You'd be lucky to get one for $1,400 now - at least new.

[jmbratter]

Maybe I missed it, but it sounds like your looking for a Princeton. Around 12 watts or so, its basically a smaller Deluxe. You can find good silverface PR's for around $500.

And remember, a good SF is no more than a used DRRI, and more importantly, they will appreciate over time, not depreciate.

And of course, the mojo...

[Ace]

Princeton Reverb all the way! I have a '68 PR. Pretty load and creamy. Amazing touch sensitivity. You can hear my Princeton Reverb at the link below (no OD pedals, just a cranked PR).

http://www.gritoserpentino.com/battle.htm

[sunburst]

Here's another :yay for a Rambler.

They may well be pricey but worth every penny. The pentode/triode switch is awesome. Not only does it act as a power level switch but you get some different tones in pent that you don't get in tri.

And I agree, a definate dessert island amp.

[DanTheBluesMan]

Originally posted by Ace
Princeton Reverb all the way! I have a '68 PR. Pretty load and creamy. Amazing touch sensitivity. You can hear my Princeton Reverb at the link below (no OD pedals, just a cranked PR).

http://www.gritoserpentino.com/battle.htm

"While dogs with no particular owners chased their tails"
"Or would you prefer the term 'Other'?"

Dude, that was cool. WHAT was that ending /chord thing? It made me thing of distant thunder fading away with reverbant echos of the topography of a hilly terrain. A little Beatlesque but I can't think of that song's name with the big chord crash fadeout.

[Ace]

That was the Beatles man! "A Day in the Life". Since it was only one chord my lawyer friend said we could get away with it. The enginner at that session thought the end of that tune sounded exactly like the build up in "A Day in the Life."

[DanTheBluesMan]

Ace, LOL, that was too cool. I should have known I was right :) BTW, that was the first time I've heard that chord crash on my Mac and SoundSticks. It lasted forever, and the radio stations never let it ring out like that. Tell your engineer that he did a great job on it.

Dan

[stxrus]

another princeton reverb vote!! :bigal hot & clean. if you need to fill a biger space, just mike it. i will never own a deathwall again. don't need it, even though a deluxe reverb would be a nice addition. but at 22w not really a deathwall.
steve

[stratNtele]

Without a doubt, I've yet to meet a Princeton non-reverb that wasn't whistle clean for 85-95% volume when fed by a single coil g'tar. I've had a handfull of'em over the decades and my current '69 gets a daily at-home workout. I use EH 6V6's exclusively, JJ 12AX7/ECC83S, Weber Copper Cap GZ34 (you MUST have rigged up a standby when using a s/s recto!). To add to the goodness, I made a new 1/2" birch ply baffle board (with new wheat colored grille) and screwed in a 12" Weber 12A125 AlNiCo (P12R) ... whoa! serious "Fender tone"! Aside from new caps and a three prong grounded cord (turned the ground switch into a standby), my amp tech Meister (Mark N.) replaced a lagged PT with an NOS '66 one, and did the famous "Paul C" which really opened up the amp's tone ... a bit louder and about 5 more watts, too.

[Josh_Voulters]

Originally posted by stratNtele
Without a doubt, I've yet to meet a Princeton non-reverb that wasn't whistle clean for 85-95% volume when fed by a single coil g'tar. I've had a handfull of'em over the decades and my current '69 gets a daily at-home workout. I use EH 6V6's exclusively, JJ 12AX7/ECC83S, Weber Copper Cap GZ34 (you MUST have rigged up a standby when using a s/s recto!). To add to the goodness, I made a new 1/2" birch ply baffle board (with new wheat colored grille) and screwed in a 12" Weber 12A125 AlNiCo (P12R) ... whoa! serious "Fender tone"! Aside from new caps and a three prong grounded cord (turned the ground switch into a standby), my amp tech Meister (Mark N.) replaced a lagged PT with an NOS '66 one, and did the famous "Paul C" which really opened up the amp's tone ... a bit louder and about 5 more watts, too.

Tell me more... What kind of wattage are we talking about? What's the difference between the Princeton, Princeton Reverb, and Princeton Chorus? Thanks in advance

[stratNtele]

A stock non-reverb Princeton will put out about 10-13 watts into a 10" speaker and it'll have a whole buncha clean headroom ... a Princeton Reverb will be louder and will overdrive sooner, still around 12 watts and a 10" speaker ... both of these are PTP hand wired tube amps.

The Princeton Chorus is a solid state amp, and I have nothing good to say about it tone-wise.

Now, if yer looking for a small Fender tube amp that does "clean" extremely well, the non-reverb Princeton will shine. Another great - but often overlooked - small vintage Fender amp is the MusicMaster Bass amp ... this is really a wonderful g'tar amp and a crappy bass amp ... 12 watts into a 12" speaker ... can do a whole buncha clean but it's also loud and when pushed it'll overdrive quite nicely. You can find MMB's going for around $200 these dayze and geez what a bargain! I just bought one for $200/delivered - and it's the 5th I've had in 4 years or so.

With vintage tube amps, they'll all need a health and maintenance checkup first and foremost. Changing to a 3-prong grounded cord is a MUST for safety's sake. Most often, the stock CTS/Oxford/whatever speaker should be replaced with a really really good choice speaker (I'm a fan of Weber speakers, particularly their AlNiCo's) ... you can get good Jensen reissue 10" and 12" ceramic C10N and C12N speakers online for no more than $50, and they're toneful, IMO. Next up would be a bit of tube experimenting - at least get some decent ones plugged in.

Any way you slice it, for the dollars you'll spend on an old vintage Fender tube amp, you'll spend far less than if you were to buy a modern boutique amp at today's prices. You'll get a hand wired PTP chassis and usually a real wood cab - you'll Never find that in a Blues Jr or Pro Jr!

Anyhoo, that's my rap and I'm sticking to it!

[Demosthenes]

Sorry, but for $350 you can't beat a Blues Jr! Classic Fender tone, sturdy amp, and a great price!

:wail1

[chaz498]

Blues Junior again!!! Well, if price is any consideration anyway! Stick a Barber Direct Drive in front of it and for $450 total you are laughing all the way home!

[stratNtele]

Originally posted by Demosthenes
Sorry, but for $350 you can't beat a Blues Jr! Classic Fender tone, sturdy amp, and a great price!

:wail1

A BJr. is an amp that will work well and surely is capable of good tone. Now compare that $350 BJr. against a $200 vintage Fender Musicmaster Bass ...



Both amps are absolutely capable of great tone. Some would say there's more versatility with the BJr due to the reverb, master volume and passive EQ - I choose to think not since all of those "features" are quite lackluster (to me). IMHO, the INTRINSIC component value and overall build of the MMB far outweighs the BJr's added "features". But this is all subjective stuff and surely YMMV.

[58Super]

What about some of the amps from some of the smaller British makers that we North Americans have not seen like Cornell and Cornford. The Cornell website has a "Champ-like" amp that has a 12" speaker.

[Josh_Voulters]

Originally posted by 58Super
What about some of the amps from some of the smaller British makers that we North Americans have not seen like Cornell and Cornford. The Cornell website has a "Champ-like" amp that has a 12" speaker.

I already have a Cornford Harlequin (6w). Its awesome, and its proved that a small wattage amp can sound incredible. The thing i need now though, is something that can get a great clean sound at similar volumes: the Harlequin has a tiny amount of headroom, and Fender style clean tones are the most pleasing IMO. The Cornell Romany is high on my "must try" list, but there are so few out there, I'm a bit scared to take the plunge without any prior experience.

[stratNtele]

Originally posted by Josh_Voulters
... The thing i need now though, is something that can get a great clean sound at similar volumes: the Harlequin has a tiny amount of headroom, and Fender style clean tones are the most pleasing IMO.

I dunno how accessible/pricey they are to you in the UK, but what you've described is a Princeton non-reverb (one of more than a few small amps that can do "clean" very well at lowered volumes).

[Josh_Voulters]

I'll keep an eye out for one, but there seem to be alot of amps with the Princeton name, and very few of the low wattage non-reverb specification. I'd guess that dealer prices here would be through the roof (it's England, and vintage stuff is not cheap). I guess Ebay will be the best place to watch out for. Thanks for the help, i really appreciate it.

[stratNtele]

The Princeton I'm referring to is pretty much the silverface vintage tube variety, as such -

http://www.ampwares.com/ffg/princeton_sf.html

[DanTheBluesMan]

Josh - there is a nice clean non-reverb blackface princeton in my area, for 399.

stratNtele - right on about the MMB ! You're preaching to the choir here. By happenstance I found myself in a local music store one lunchtime Feb 2002. Wasn't looking for anything in particular. By the guitar amps was this little old fender. Looked at it, hey, a little bass amp. Thinking how the Bassman was such a popular guitar amp, i looked in the back. Ugh, some heretic had put a P****y speaker in it. But it had tubes, and damned if one of them didn't look original. I tried a bass through it, pfft, nothing like my SWR workingman 10. Plugged a guitar into it. hey, this has promise. bought it on the spot.

retubed it (JAN 6004W is the equivalent of 6AQ5A), put in a Weber Blue Dog C12B. Damn, its such a freaking sweet little screamer. On 3 its already breaking up, on 5 its sings and is pretty loud. My Les Pauls LOVE this thing.

[Josh_Voulters]

Dan, I'm assuming that you're in the US. If so, that great price of 399 becomes a helluva lot bigger once it gets across the atlantic. If i'm wrong, and you're in the UK, tell me some more! I think the Princeton is the way to go, so I'm always on the lookout!

[DanTheBluesMan]

Originally posted by Josh_Voulters
Dan, I'm assuming that you're in the US. If so, that great price of 399 becomes a helluva lot bigger once it gets across the atlantic. If i'm wrong, and you're in the UK, tell me some more! I think the Princeton is the way to go, so I'm always on the lookout!

Hi Josh,

yes, I'm in US. but I thought the dollar was low against the euro/pound? Is the price high because of shipping?


PS. I stumbled upon a narrow-panel tweed champ this weekend. never seen nor heard one in person before. freakin' blew me away. all it has is 3 tubes (rectifier, power, inverter) volume control. ta-dah. that's it. And it smokes. You'd have to mic it in order to gig, but for recording and practice, its pretty hard to beat. It wasn't cheap, but I couldn't let it pass. Now I want a tweed deluxe. mmmmm.

[Josh_Voulters]

You're right, the exchange rate is favourable for the pound against the dollar, but shipping will cost an arm and a leg (and i'm assuming i'll need a good case to get any kind of insurance), and import duties are outrageous. Good luck with the champ quest!

[DanTheBluesMan]

Originally posted by Josh_Voulters
and import duties are outrageous.

Yeesh, forgot about those.

[Ace]

Friend has a MMB with a JBL D120F. Damn thing kept up with my Vibrolux Reverb!!

[DanTheBluesMan]

Originally posted by Ace
Friend has a MMB with a JBL D120F. Damn thing kept up with my Vibrolux Reverb!!

damn, would I like to find one of those for my MMB.

[Ace]

Dan, they are great speakers for clean tone.

[stratNtele]

In the "new" '77 MMB I just received, I replaced the tired CTS speaker with a Weber 12" 12A125 (P12Q) ... like, wow! I thought the Weber ceramic Blue Dog was a goodie, the P12Q AlNiCo is much smoother and more harmonically rich ... for me, this is the ideal MMB speaker. When fed by a typcial Tele, it's loud and smooth to about 1/2 volume and then it starts some fine overdriven crunch. FWIW, I see the prices of these MMB's starting to creep upwards as the word slowly gets out ... I wouldn't doubt that $300 will become the norm for one in fairly decent condition. If you find a gem for $200 or under, snatch that sucker up pronto!